[Attention] Best Arranged/Doujin Contest: Pre-Discussion

orion_mk3 · 09:31 PM

Voting is now open!
Shortly after the end of the 2007 BSC, discussion about the next contest began in the BSC Discussion thread. We've fallen into a pattern over the last few years of having the BSC in the summer and a more specific "off season" contest in the winter; previous off season contests include the Best Chiptune Contest, Best Mega Man Song showdown, and the abortive Best Battle Song to-do.

Drakken proposed that we hold a Best Arranged Song contest beginning in January, and the idea met with approval. Official arrangements are banned from the BSC and doujin (fan-made) tracks are banned from both the BSC and Song of the Week, so such a contest would fill a definite niche. After discussing the matter, it was decided to focus on doujin arrangements only in a Best Doujin Contest.

What is doujin?

Essentially, doujin is fan-made arrangements of pre-existing VGM. In determining whether or not an arrangement qualifies as doujin, this contest will follow "Liontamer's Law:" if the copyright holders aren't the ones who organized or authorized the creation of the track, it's doujin.

The nominations have been processed and assigned random seeds! Everybody got their first 8 nominations into the contest, and everyone who nominated before katchum got their 9th pick in as well. No 10th picks made it in, and nobody's complete set of 10 was nominated. Next comes tagging; expect to hear from me in the next day or so if there are any missing uploads.

Here is the rough list of tracks that will be in the contest. There may be a few transcription errors; please let me know if you see any.

Torrent

Send big files the easy way. Files too large for email attachments? No problem!

Tracks

The following 256 tracks have been nominated for the contest:

Spoiler:

They've been arranged in the following brackets:

Bracket A

Spoiler:

Bracket B

Spoiler:

Bracket C

Spoiler:

Bracket D

Spoiler:

Bracket E

Spoiler:

Bracket F

Spoiler:

Bracket G

Spoiler:

Bracket H

Spoiler:

Volunteers

As with the previous contests, we'd need to rely on the community to make this happen. I'm willing to do what it takes, but my only real experience in previous contests is with thread creation and maintenance. We'd need help with:

Hosting
Even a 128-song contest requires a large and generous host, and we saw with BSC '07 that direct download providers like SendSpace just can't cut it.
Volunteers: Bigblah

Aquiring the Music
It seems that nominators will be providing their own tracks, by and large, but it might help to have a doujin-savvy volunteer on hand just in case anything needs to be rounded up.
Volunteers: none yet

Creating a Torrent
I've never used the torrent option, preferring to download the songs as they come, but many swear by it. We'd need someone well-versed in the intricacies of BitTorrent and seeders a-plenty.
Volunteers: none yet

Creating Voting Threads
In the past, we've made this collaborative, with different people taking different brackets. That might work again, though I could probably handle it by myself if need be. We should definitely include the innovation of putting the track names in the voting thread titles, as that worked wonderfully this BSC.
Volunteers: Crash Landon (tentative), orion_mk3, slayer25k, GoldfishX (tentative)

So, what're your thoughts and opinions on this? Any volunteers? Let's get the ball rolling

niki · Local time: Oct 21, 2007, 01:36 AM

I'd like this to be doujin/fan arrange only. It would really be unique that way and give opportunities to actually listen to unknown stuff. The VGM fan arrange world is wide and full of obscure gems ~

Let's settle fast about this first, k? =3

Goldfish from Hell · Oct 20, 2007, 08:28 PM

Doujin/fan only. And that's strictly for my own benefit, since I'm far less familiar with most fan arranges than I am official arranges and SOTW is a good enough showcase for official ones. But either is fine with me. I'm not opposed to putting the two side-by-side either.

256. I assume this will have more interest than the MM contest or the chiptune contest. If I'm wrong, oh well, but there's a LOT out there from both US arranges and Japanese doujins. If we're doing both fan and official arranges, it would HAVE to be 256. At least.

I can go either way with having original tracks provided. It doesn't make a difference to me. I'd say leave it up to the nominator if they want to upload it (although my general philosophy is "if you nominate, you're responsible for uploading your shit", period...unless you don't have access to it or you're stuck on dial-up or something plausible)

"Should we adopt the BSC nomination process?"

I actually like Pang's nomination system the more I think about it. Maybe try something along the lines of "have everyone nominate 10 tracks" and allow everything up to the cap (maybe throw in a prelim round if we're, say, halfway through everyone's #6 picks). So, 50 people nominate 10 tracks. Cap at 256. Everyone's picks from #1-#5 get in. Then random draw for some prelims, just to use those lower picks and fill remaining slots. Priority given to earlier nominations. Something new. I'm seriously bored with the usual BSC nomination procedure and the list fixing it entails (even if I take credit for making it mainstream). And this is much simpler anyway, which is nice.

Randomly seed as rounds progress. I hate knowing how a month's worth of bracket is going to fall after 30 seconds of looking at it. Keep me on my toes. This is a huge reason my attention waned in the BSC.

Finally, yes, we should have the contest...I think a lot of people are unfamiliar with the area of fan arranges and this serves a good purpose in that regard. If we're doing official as well...Same thing, though not to the same extent.

January/February is a tough time for me, so I'll give a tentative "yes" as far as bracket-making.

Crash Landon · Oct 21, 2007, 01:53 AM

I'll reiterate the opinions I gave orion in private:

Doujin only?: Yes, and my reason is that 95% of existing professional arrangements are already eligible for an existing contest: Song of the Week. The songs that win each SotW are permanently enshrined on the Song of the Week Site. The mainsite is a really cool resource for good music and whenever an awesome track comes along in another contest, I always secretly mourn the fact that it won't be featured on the SotW site for everyone's permanent enjoyment. If someone has several awesome pro arrangements, I'd rather encourage them to get involved with SotW than see them show up for one contest, then go back to ignoring the VGM Discussion forum.

Contrarily, doujins/fan arrangements currently have no competitive forum, making this an ideal opportunity to focus upon this otherwise excluded genre. The mid-season song contests have a history of filling very narrow niches, and I feel like "any and all arrangements" is a bit too broad.

128 or 256 tracks?: I'm leaning toward 256 tracks. If we allow 10 tracks per nominator, it would still require 26 nominators to fill the quota. Mid-season contests don't typically attract a slew of nominators, so 26 may be a very reasonable target number.

However, in order to keep things from going on forever, I'm thinking that the first two rounds should consist of four-way matches, with the two highest vote-getters advancing in each. By the third round, much of the chaff should be eliminated and we can go down to one-on-one pairings from then on. Simple and expedient.

No prelims either. That may work for the BSC where there's often a glut of nominations hovering at the line of inclusion, but in smaller contests like this, it just drags everything out further. People tend to lose interest as it is; why make them wait through even more rounds?

Provide info on original tracks?: I suggested it as something that would be nice but by no means critical to the contest. If it winds up meaning a lot more work and logistics, then it may not be worth the effort.

Should we hold the contest at all?: Presently, there is no reason not to do anything. I haven't seen anyone shouting that enough is enough. I mean, it's not like participation is mandatory.

Adopt the BSC nomination process?: No. Adopt the SAUS nomination process instead. It worked just as well and rewarded people who didn't procrastinate.

How it works is that nominations are entered on a "first come, first serve" basis. No point tallying is necessary. You choose ten tracks and if you manage to assemble your list in time (complete with downloadable files), then your picks get in. You snooze, you lose. The nomination process always seems to drag on forever in itself, which has always aggravated me. Pang's SAUS method was a clean, impartial solution.

Note: This also removes all motivation to duplicate someone else's nominations.

Reseeding?: There's no evidence that reseeding actually makes a difference in the outcomes; once brackets are randomly determined, they're not getting any more random. So no, reseeding is a silly waste of time that serves only to placate whiners. "Oh, my track is going to lose!" Yeah, they're all going to lose, except for one, you dumb shit. Suck it up like the rest of us.

Timetable?: One week for each pairing in the first two rounds. No more, no less. Seven days is plenty of time for anyone with a modest interest to get in there and click a few buttons.
The later rounds should be pared down to four or five days, as only the determined participants will have paid attention that long into the contest, and they should theoretically be familiar with the advancing tracks by then. There are also fewer tracks to consider then, so why wait just as long for people to make up their minds?

Tabulating nomination points: The SAUS method, as described above, makes this a moot topic. Hooray for efficiency!

Acquiring the music: As with any niche contest, if a person is familiar enough with a track to nominate it, then there's a 95% chance that they already have the file. As such, if you submit a list, it should be your responsibility to make sure the files are accessible by the contest's coordinator(s). If you can't be arsed to do that much, then why should your nominations be as important as those of someone who took the time to upload?

Creating voting threads: I liked the system that was used in the BSC, in which different people handled specific brackets, reducing the load for everyone. There's no reason not to try this again. I can handle one or two brackets.

I think that sums up my opinions.

Dhsu · Local time: Oct 21, 2007, 09:46 AM

I can't imagine it would take too much time or effort to create a PHP script of some sort to automatically keep track of the tournament. Might have to do some initial housekeeping to weed out typos/duplicates/etc. but overall it should be a big timesaver.

Or has someone already done this, causing this post to make me to look like a complete idiot?

Goldfish from Hell · Oct 21, 2007, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

Reseeding?: There's no evidence that reseeding actually makes a difference in the outcomes; once brackets are randomly determined, they're not getting any more random. So no, reseeding is a silly waste of time that serves only to placate whiners. "Oh, my track is going to lose!" Yeah, they're all going to lose, except for one, you dumb shit. Suck it up like the rest of us.

I agree it doesn't affect the outcome of the overall tourney. However, I would argue it makes the round-to-round match-ups more compelling as a participator. The 2006 BSC, it was a lot of fun seeing the random pairings as they came up each round (VS knowing what the pairings would be ahead of time in 04, 05 and 07 and in some cases, voting ahead of time...In Bracket A this year, I think everyone knew it was going to be some mix of Baba Yetu, Puzzle and Wilderness and everyone was complaining about the crappiness of Bracket C. Randomly seeding would have fixed both instances, by at least adding some drama to the proceedings as far as what the matches would be. And okay...I guess it would have affected the outcome of the overall tourney)

I'm also in favor of four-track pairings for the first and second rounds, just to try something different.

Liontamer · Oct 21, 2007, 03:52 PM

If y'all really wanna spotlight doujin music, do 256. The logistics would be harder, but more music would be spotlighted. I'd have to be involved or it would be lopsided to Japanese fan arrangements. It'll still be too lopsided, but that's just how the quantities are. :-)

Goldfish from Hell · Oct 21, 2007, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Liontamer

If y'all really wanna spotlight doujin music, do 256. The logistics would be harder, but more music would be spotlighted. I'd have to be involved or it would be lopsided to Japanese fan arrangements. It'll still be too lopsided, but that's just how the quantities are. :-)

Truth be told, the initial list I had in mind has more than a few non-Japan ones.

*calling dibs on Ailsean/Kaijin's "Bloody Hell"*

niki · Local time: Oct 22, 2007, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by Liontamer

If y'all really wanna spotlight doujin music, do 256. The logistics would be harder, but more music would be spotlighted. I'd have to be involved or it would be lopsided to Japanese fan arrangements. It'll still be too lopsided, but that's just how the quantities are. :-)

I'm actually expecting an OC Remix overload myself, but heh, we'll see. =)

orion_mk3 · Oct 21, 2007, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by niki

I'm actually expecting an OC Remix overload myself, but heh, we'll see. =)

That's where the majority of my stuff would come from, anyway. I think if we decide to go all doujin (and that's the way the wind seems to be blowing thus far) we could whip up links to OCR, niki's obscurities thread, and other places for people to harvest nominations if they're stumped.

niki · Local time: Oct 22, 2007, 12:48 AM

That's fine though. I like the idea of seeing fan arrange scenes as one. This should be an interesting contest if many people familiar with those different scenes participate. =)

Drakken · Oct 21, 2007, 05:53 PM

Yeah, it should be interesting to see the makeup of the nominations (Japanese doujins vs. OCRemix/VGMix, basically). I'm not very familiar with Japanese amateur works, so most of my noms will likely be from the aforementioned remix sites.

As for my opinions on this contest...

Doujin only?: I was initially torn on this one. On one hand, there are arrangements from "professional" albums that I'd love to see in a contest like this (some of the awesome Perfect Selection Dracula Battle tracks, maybe something from AIEM Deceitful Wings or Master of Monsters). Some of those would be too well-known (or at least the source material would be too well known) to be eligible for SotW, and besides, I still would like to think of SotW as an outlet for mainly in-game tunes (though I realize a good amount of arrangements are nominated, and I myself have nominated a couple).

On the other hand, I understand that there is currently no forum here highlighting doujin music (save for Niki's thread in My Stuff), and that fact in itself is a strong argument for doujin only. It looks like the majority opinion (at least so far) is doujin only, and that's fine.

128 or 256 tracks?: 256. Definitely. Initial matchups of four songs with the top two moving on and no prelims sounds good to me.

Provide info on original tracks?: Eh, not a big deal. Certainly should not require including the original track. The name and game it's from would be good (if that's not already obvious).

Should we hold the contest at all?: Sure.

Adopt the BSC nomination process?: Like some others here, I'm inclined to go with the SAUS format. Makes things much more simple and quick. Also means people don't need to piggyback on others' noms (nothing wrong with that, but it's just...a nuisance, in a way?).

If we decided to go with the SAUS format, the next question would be, "Should everyone get 10 noms, or 5?" 10 noms would mean 27 or 28 members could take part in nominating songs (assuming not everyone nominates the full 10 songs or some people fail to provide tracks). 5 noms each would mean closer to 60 people get to nominate songs, but obviously, you can't have as many noms in the contest.

Reseeding?: Eh. I'm kind of neutral on this one. Can't really argue the fact that it makes things more interesting/unpredictable, though.

Timetable?: What Crash said sounds good (one week in each pairing for the first couple rounds, then 4 or 5 days in the later rounds).

Tabulating nomination points: No need if we go with the SAUS format.

Acquiring the music: Nominators should not be required to provide songs, BUT if they nominate something obscure and the people gathering songs can't find it, then their song gets disqualified and someone else's gets in. It's the nominator's fault for not providing the track.

Creating voting threads: Multiple people is fine, BUT there should be a standard, proper format that everyone follows.

I'm looking forward to this. Better start picking out noms.