Best Song Contest 2007: Discussion Thread

The aim of this thread is to see BSC '07 kick off promptly on June 1st*. This, of course, will require a nomination thread started well in advance, perhaps a months time. It's been in past years a one man show. Due to NYRSkate's retirement, it popping up magically without a helping hand from the community isn't going to happen. Let's take charge to ensure a smooth process this year, assigning spread out roles, proposing ideas, and establishing rules as a group.

*Provided we agree that should happen in the first place.

Vacancies

Tabulating nomination point totals: This can be a bit of an exhausting process, given that past years have seen in the range of around 100 top ten lists that are edited often with echoing nominations peppered throughout. If at all possible, ideally two people would individually work on this task so they can compare results for a higher level of accuracy.

Aquiring all 256 plus preliminary tracks: Probably one of the most heavy duty tasks of pulling this thing off, someone has to gather whatever obscure tracks that make it through for listening consideration. This, too, could be a collaborative effort as long as the group assigned to it is committed and confident enough with their communication skills not to cause confusion. Also encouraged is anyone with a very large resource that would lend access to their collection. Hosting in the same fashion as last year, uploading to the staff server, is not a foreseeable issue. We may want to clear the hosted songs from last year if they're still lingering on it to balance things out, perhaps the content from BCC as well, it should be concluded by then. The person/people responsible on this should also have some know how on track conversion, working on the assumption that not all will be available in mp3 but the entire field should end up that way before things kick off.

Creating a torrent: Extremely self explanatory. It would be fantastic if a member of the gathering team did this as they would already be in possession of every music file.

Creating voting threads: A simple enough, only time consuming task. All you need to do is follow the format and know how to make use of url and mp3 tags. Ideally, at least two people would be on this to cut the workload in half, and ideally, we'd see moderators creating the threads. BCC has proven this certainly isn't necessary, but it removes a lot of hassle as we freely have access to correct our errors and extend polls due to downtime or ties. On that note, any volunteer is hopefully confident in their ability to be consistent and reliable to ensure things remain as delay and error free as possible.

Creating results threads: Same thoughts as above, only applied to gathering the outcomes and listing them conveniently in one spot, featuring links to each pairing including current ones.

Points of discussion

First and formost, are we burnt out on game music mega contests?

There are constant vgm contests at GFF. There's hardly time for a moment's rest before the next one kicks off and Song of the Week is rarely on brake. It may be tradition, but the question posed here is is it necessary to hold this thing in the coming Summer months, or is it time for a breather? Consider that the BCC is yet to conclude. I'm guessing it most likely would before June, but there's no strict timetable on the event and you can never anticipate when the next crash will happen, and whether it'll be for a night or a week and a half. Consider that SotW is in it's 89th installment. Upon its 104th (July 9th if it keeps running like clockwork), the regular fixtures will most likely be clamoring for Song of the Year 2. The two events would most definitely be competing for attention while running parallel to each other.

Is this too much to handle? If it is, what would be a realistic launch date for BSC '07? Perhaps 2008?

If the majority is for holding off, I'll put this thread on the shelf for revival at a later date. If the majority would like the onslaught to continue, that can be arranged as well.

In the same vein, if you are for the event to be held as is traditionally scheduled, would you support ideas to make the process more compact, such as limiting the field to 128, shortening voting periods so it doesn't take a half year in it's entirety, and more efficiently pacing things, such as starting round 2 in bracket A while round 1 for F, G, and H may still be ongoing?

Should the nomination process remain the same?

A top ten list, a 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 point distribution. Fix what isn't broken? If yes, any ideas?

Should we bother with results threads?

Take my word for it. They are monotonous to make. They seemed rarely used last year. Are result threads a waste of time or would you care more if they weren't around?

Previous final 16 contenders.

Do we allow them? Take off the restrictions from the 05 and 04 group but leave them on last years? Or does retired mean retired?

Tracks newly released from the past year.

Bonus points? Given preference in nomination point total ties?

Reseeding?

Complex shuffle or by the books march down the brackets? I have an idea for this, I'll share later.

And finally, the companion disk.

No matter how ultimately how useless the top 16 and companion disk end up being, I still found the process fun each time it was done. Looking way down the road, I'd probably spearheading the project again. I'd like there to be a clear opinion this time before we start, however; is the companion disk cut off point designated by length (80 minutes) or by number of tracks (16)?

tl;dr?

Was this too long that you didn't read it? Simply begin to pound out your uninformed response regardless! START RIGHT NOW.

First and formost, are we burnt out on game music mega contests?

I'm going to say the answer is probably "yes". Me, not so much but I think the general populace of Gamingforce has lost interest due to oversaturation. It takes time to listen to all 256 tracks and some people feel that there's no point in participating at all if they can't hear all 256 in one or two sittings.

I think perhaps we should begin to restrict the amount of VGM contests we have. SotW doesn't need a "Song of the Year" to keep going. And the "Best Chiptune Contest" may serve as more of a one-time novelty than an annual event.

Should the nomination process remain the same?

I see no reason why not, as it's proven to work. People have suggested alternate systems but nobody has come up with anything so flawless in its execution that everyone else has stopped and smacked themselves for not dreaming it up first. All that really happens is that people debate for several pages over which system would be better, but there's never a concensus.

Save time, energy and frustrations, use the system we're used to by now.

Lower the number of competing tracks/shorten voting periods?

I like the number 256. The BSC generally draws more nominations than anything else and it's been tradition that I'm lucky if three out of my ten nominations make it into the brackets. Lowering that number to 128 will mean that my top choice and maybe, just maybe, my second choice will get in. If those are the realistic odds, then I might wonder if there's much point in nominating the full ten.

As for voting periods, yeah, they can be shortened a little. Or simply open up more voting at once to keep people busy.

Should we bother with results threads?

Be careful in how you examine them. "Rarely used" doesn't mean that the threads were rarely read. Results are what they are and there's not much to discuss because there has usually been a seperate BSC Discussion Thread where everyone expresses shock, outrage, pride, etc.
Look at the Chiptune Results threads. There's not much discussion but the viewcounts are reasonably high. They're serving their purpose.

Previous final 16 contenders.

No, thanks. Out of 256 entrants, I think it's a reasonable victory for anyone and any track to reach the Sweet Sixteen. That they've invariably been placed onto commemorative "Best of BSC (Insert Year)" albums is enough to show that they're good and will remain consistently so.

As for allowing high-ranked tracks from years further back, I'm against that. We've already gone through the motions to prove that "Silent Hill 2 - Laura's Theme" is widely appreciated. No need to waste time coming to the same conclusion again.

Tracks newly released from the past year.

To me, the year in which a track was released has absolutely NO relevance upon its quality. Why allow any track special consideration simply because it didn't exist in previous years? It doesn't serve any specific purpose other than to say "Hey, there were games this year too!".

So no special points, bonus brackets, wild-card nomination slots - nothing. A nomination should rise or fall upon its own musical merits and nothing else.

Reseeding?

Definitely. I think this is a better test of a track's mettle than a standard progression. A mediocre track can progress deeply simply by being surrounded by low quality tracks. "The lesser of numerous evils" isn't how I like to think of a track by the time it's reaching the second half of the contest.

Reseeding increases the chances that a track will meet up with stiffer competition and compensates for the existence of a weak bracket during any given round.

And finally, the companion disk.

That's up to you, or anyone who wants to compile such a thing. I have a habit of saving any music I enjoyed along the way anyhow, so a compilation CD usually winds up being many of the songs I already saved to disk and archived, plus a tacked-on selection of the ones I didn't like so much. I know that's a cynical way of seeing it, and I'm probably in the minority, don't worry. For most people, a compilation CD is probably a very handy time-saver.

Personally, I'd almost like to see a "Best SNES Track" contest, since

A) SNES wasn't eligible in BCC
B) Getting the tracks together would be a trivial matter, and the torrent would be less than 1mb (www.snesmusic.org.)

No promises, but my time should be more free by the time this comes around.

Quote:

First and formost, are we burnt out on game music mega contests?

Yes and no...Yes, because I assume people are having issues with participating now because this is the height of school. At least, that's the case with me. I participate when I can (or when I have a "vesting interest" ). Also, it was agreed from the start that the Chiptune contest's participation would be severly limited and the SOTW crowd is rarely going to change a great deal.

No, because BSC is during the slow, boring summer months and it is a great way to discover all sorts of game music. I look forward to coming away with at least 10 new tracks I might not have heard of or haven't paid attention to each year.

Quote:

Should the nomination process remain the same?

It's fine with me. As an alternative, I was thinking have everyone nominate 2 tracks they definitely want in (so no one gets hosed with their second picks), then pool everything else into a drawing and pick random names for the preliminary rounds, based on everyone's 3-10 picks, then advance the winners to the main contest to fill out the remaining slots. Once you get past the second slot, it's a matter of chance and hoping for additional support. So everyone would have 10 picks...2 nominations that get in for sure and 8 that qualify for the preliminary round drawing. So it would ensure more quality through the entire nomination list, since your 3-10 picks all have an equal chance of getting in. Basically, it's doing away with the "sleeper" picks and using the 3-10 slots as the sleepers that have made up the preliminaries the last 2 years.

Quote:

Should we bother with results threads?

I think a visualized bracket is far more effective. I know I used the one from last year quite a bit.

Quote:

Previous final 16 contenders.

They had their chance...No. There's plenty of VGM out there that people shouldn't fuss about a paltry 48 tracks or so that are ineligible. Even then, it leads to backlash voting anyway (read: "This track had its' chance"), effectively wasting a slot. Look at how far SH2's "Promise" got last year...

Quote:

Tracks newly released from the past year.

I was actually going to propose another contest down the line...A "best new track of the year". Just a random thought...Anyway, enough of these show up naturally in BSC and SOTW, that I wouldn't worry too much about it. I know I often lean towards more recent tracks.

Quote:

Reseeding?

Definitely.

Quote:

And finally, the companion disk.

I've suggested for two years to have an additional round of "Companion Disc vs the Actual Top 16" once the contest was over, since some tracks just get a hard match-up early on and simply can't advance (and then people realize how much they like it once it's out). I fully support the companion disc.

First and formost, are we burnt out on game music mega contests?

Nope, BSC is during the summer, and I get extremely bored during at least one point during the summer.

Should the nomination process remain the same?

No problems with the old one either, we haven't had issues in the past

Should we bother with results threads?

They're not completely necessary. The poll itself should be able to handle it, but I agree with the entire visual bracket system as well

Previous final 16 contenders.

Although they were pretty good songs, I agree that the top 16 don't actually need to be around again. New music = the best.

Tracks newly released from the past year.

I personally really don't care that much, but I'd say that new music tends to have a higher vote count anyway.

Reseeding?

If we're going to do a visual bracket, then I suggest we don't reseed. However, it's not really my idea whether reseeding is important

And finally, the companion disk.

Personally: I'd say not really because I almost always have all the top 16 tracks, but it's up to you all.

First and formost, are we burnt out on game music mega contests?

I can't speak for the majority, but I'm not. I always enjoy them, and they could run all year round for all I care.

As for contest format changes:

-I wouldn't want the # of songs to be any less than 256. It's already hard enough to get just a few of your noms into the contest; 128 would mean some people only get one song in.

-Shortening the voting periods? I dunno, a week seems good for the first round. Anything less than that, and people won't be able to get to everything. As the contest goes on, there are less tracks and people are more familiar with the tracks that are there, so things could be moved along more quickly. This can be accomplished either by shortening the number of days matchups stay open or running more matchups at the same time.

Should the nomination process remain the same?

For now, I'll say yes. I may want to give it some thought later, though.

Should we bother with results threads?

I'm in favor of a cleaner way to view the contest results, actually. Aardark's off-site bracket was kind of cool.

Previous final 16 contenders.

Keep them out; they had their chance, they had their glory. Fresh is better.

Tracks newly released from the past year.

Well see, this actually brings up something I've had in my head for awhile. It would be neat to have a contest (yes, yes, agh, more contests) at the end of the year made up of only THAT year's music. So, a 2006 contest featuring only game music released in 2006. That would be a neat look at what's current in game music.

But barring that...I guess songs from the past year should get bonuses. That might encourage people to nominate more new songs that obviously will have not been in BSC before (I'm assuming that's the point of that rule).

Reseeding?

I like songs to stay in their own brackets. Otherwise it's all kind of pointless to have separate brackets. And being a sports fan, the shuffling seems weird.

And finally, the companion disk.

Well, if you do length, there's the potential problem of the "next" song in line for the disc not fitting, resulting in you having to skip that and put on a shorter song with a lower point total.

I can't remember what I was in favor of last year. 16 seems like a good number.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

And the "Best Chiptune Contest" may serve as more of a one-time novelty than an annual event.

I agree.

Quote:

I think perhaps we should begin to restrict the amount of VGM contests we have. SotW doesn't need a "Song of the Year" to keep going. And the "Best Chiptune Contest" may serve as more of a one-time novelty than an annual event.

Isn't there just as much chance of a song getting paired up against weak tracks this way as there is without reseeding? Sure, a weak song that otherwise would have cruised by might face tougher competition after a reshuffle, but then a couple strong songs that would have gone against each other might also end up getting paired off with weak songs. I don't think it really accomplishes anything in the end.

I do not mind the current nomination process, however being encouraged to nominate without regards to other people's nominations is absurd, as you can easily assume that only your top 2 seeds will enter the contest. I'd say the opposite is more fun; having people collaborate on what tracks to enter into the contest should not be frowned upon.

You know what would really help the Best Song Contest? Cutting the total number of competing tracks in half. Last year's contest went on absurdly long (no one's fault, just the sheer workload), and I'm pretty sure participation plummeted until the sweet 16. So, yeah, have everyone give five nominations instead of ten, have half as many preliminaries and number of qualifying songs, etcetera.

As for the rest, I say the nomination system is fine, retire last year's 16 and keep the previous years' retired as well, and the rest I could go either way.

Originally Posted by Darkcomet72

I do not mind the current nomination process, however being encouraged to nominate without regards to other people's nominations is absurd, as you can easily assume that only your top 2 seeds will enter the contest. I'd say the opposite is more fun; having people collaborate on what tracks to enter into the contest should not be frowned upon.

Yeah, it's kind of silly to discourage looking at other peoples' noms. At the very least, just don't mention that at all in the rules. People will do what people will do.

I have to agree with cutting the total number of competing songs in half. I lost interest in voting after Round 2 was over simply because it took so damn long for polls to close and to move on - not to mention last year's BSC went on until December (correct me if I'm wrong). Half a year, Christ... that has to be my only complaint, really, everything else is fine.

I have over 200 gigabytes of VGM (including half of all of #gamemp3s' releases) and so I can offer to gather up tracks and send them over to staff, if that's alright.

A dumb question, but is it compulsory to comment in every thread you vote in? I personally prefer to just vote and leave it at that - no posting in any threads whatsoever. I'm sure those who like to voice their opinions on music would disagree with me, but alas.

I personally feel that with song of the week, chiptunes, and general propagation of sendspace-type sites, the contest has lost some of its luster.

If I had to make a choice, though, I'd rather there just be one BSC, and the others not need to go through the motions. It's like we had a contest for "Best Fried Chicken" right after a contest for "Best Grilled Chicken." At some point the idea of a contest becomes pointless.

Reseeding: There are pros and cons to both as far as shuffling goes. Results tend to be highly predictable when you don't. On the other hand, while reseeding does add an element of surprise to each round, what's given up for it is kind of important. There's no guarantee that early tough or weak match ups will be reduced because it's not based on anything. Making pairings at random for round two and beyond, there'd be a chance we could see the number one and two seeds face off almost immediately. It causes initial rankings to count for hardly anything.

There was an idea floated last year about basing second round seedings on either amount of votes, or percentage of the vote. The major flaw with this was how participation declines from A through H. It seemed an unfair method to the songs that had the misfortune of being featured in later brackets. Even while keeping tracks in their original bracket, the vote for two songs held in very high regard could be split right down the middle, while something not nearly as deserving faces something just abysmal and ends up winning by a large margin. Mediocrity gains the top seed while the quality piece draws the short straw.

What I propose we do is this. We reseed. We keep songs within their original bracket. What the new seeds are based off of will be a point total given in thread that is separate from the votes in the poll. You can choose to give 1,2 or 3 points to any song, or you can choose to not give any points to a song, and you can award points to both song in the pairing if you wish. Distributing these reseeding points would not be a prerequisite to voting in the poll. I believe that with this system, we should be able to neatly button up all issues of unfairness. What will follow in round two should be a more accurate picture of what's favored possessing the higher seeds, yet possibilities over upsets will still be a very real threat. The crowd that votes without comment will always be larger than those who chime in and there's no telling which way they will sway the outcomes.

Nomination format: I'm inclined to agree that we should probably stick with the normal method. If there was any way to tell if the amount of nominators would be many or few in comparison to the past, I'd be for entertaining different ideas. The more nominators participate, the less effective a ton ten list proves to be, but at this rate I'd personally anticipate continued decline, estimating that if we don't see a match from last year of around 80 to 90 lists, we certainly aren't going to overshoot that mark.

Still, even given 70 or so nominators, that's still a hefty 700 tracks to tally. Surely they would not all be unique, but not to the point where the number of nominated tracks not making it in wouldn't be absurdly over inflated. I think shooting for the lowest number of tracks not making the contest as possible should be our goal. It'd be easier to obtain a point total, There would be less frustration on the part of the participants laboring over a top ten to see most of their selections sheared.

What I'd be all for is a top five list. Points distributed 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 with no honorable mentions. 256 tracks in total, with prelims held as they turn out to be necessary.

Visual brackets: The threads themselves serve the purpose of being a one stop shop for every link you need to get anywhere in the contest, that's what I feel the main strength of them is. While we could certainly make up some visual brackets for each round, I don't think they completely take the place of the threads. And if the threads did exist, it would then go about making the visuals redundant. They are usually put together to let people see when their nominations are coming up in the first rounds of competition before it starts.

First and formost, are we burnt out on game music mega contests?

I personally love them to death, like Drakken. It's a great forum for finding new tunes and discussion. Granted, the participation does dwindle a bit after the first round, though the BCC is looking at 25 voters per thread in Round 3 which is comparable to the 30 voters per thread it enjoyed at the beginning.

As far as Song of the Year is concerned, I don't really think it's necessary. The Battles have always been enough for me in honoring past nominees. We could always retool it, too. It might make a good off-season contest (we've fallen into sort of a pattern: BSC -> Niche Contest ->BSC).

Should the nomination process remain the same?

I'm fine with that, though if the number of total tracks is cut down the number of nominations could (should?) be reduced accordingly. I'm all for cutting down to 128 tracks as well; that should streamline the contest and allow it to begin, and end, during the summer.

Should we bother with results threads?

I've been making them for the BCC, and I see them as valuable, if tedious. They may not get a lot of replies, but I've used them to quickly review my comments for past rounds without clicking through the individual threads.

Previous final 16 contenders.

Retire every last one of them. Permanently.

Tracks newly released from the past year.

I'm all for bonus points for inclusion in the contest, but use as tiebreakers seems iffy.

Reseeding?

Why bother having brackets at all if they're reshuffled? I say do it NCAA style, or at most mix the songs within their brackets.

And finally, the companion disk.

I'd say 16 tracks or 80 minutes, whichever comes first.

Incidentally, thanks to the BCC I have experience with creating voting and results threads, and I'd be happy to help out with that if neccessary. I really like the idea of the community coming together to volunteer their time to make the contest a reality.

EDIT: Goldfish's nomination idea isn't half bad, actually. I'd support that too.

Should the nomination process remain the same?
I don't think so. Taking all the votation proccess must be a pain for the people working with it, so I'd go with goldfish: 2-3 noms that go directly to the contest, and another 5-10 that will enter randomly. And there is no need of making the preliminaries, that takes too much time and makes the final contest to be too long.

First and formost, are we burnt out on game music mega contests?

I find myself usually feeling contempt towards most of the final entries in GFF's contests, but I don't think they've run their course. Personally, I'd prefer to see a more original contest, i.e. one dedicated to arrangements. I don't see why it can't work but don't remember the official explanation why it hasn't happened yet. That way, we can have a new mega contest with fresh tracks and new methods of analysing them. The break will help make 2008's 'song' contest fresher.

Should the nomination process remain the same?

I don't like how 15 last place nominations equivalate to one first place nomination. If you add 10 to each number, it'd work out better, in my view.

Should we bother with results threads?

If it's going to be hard on the administration (having run contests like this myself, I know it's tiring), I don't think it's worth it.

Previous final 16 contenders.

Nah. Let's try to get some new tracks to the top.

Tracks newly released from the past year.

I'd expect many would have a bias towards nominating these anyway, so extra points and whatnot don't seem necessary to me.

I don't know enough about the companion disc or reseeding process to offer any feedback at least this late at night.

I would offer a helping hand, but I know all too well how difficult these contests are to manage and wouldn't want to run the risk of having responsibilities for two at once. Good luck with it all!