The Issue with Attachments

God, stop being reactionary. No one here is asking for CH to fuck off and never come back. We just want them to learn to use the FTP servers.

Originally Posted by Mersenne

Split from GFF:

+ 95% CH's don't venture outside CH or give a care for the rest of GFF.
+ Relieves huge burden on GFF admin and servers.
+ Easier to manage a smaller community. Streamlined admin and decision making process. Less consultation required for any changes.
+ In the long run more reliable downloads than FTP or file sharing sites/programs.
+ Allows room for growth and more freedom of options.
+ General enthusiasm and support?

- Requires a person or persons to pay for and manage a server.
- GFF staff and Blah (especially Blah) provides amazing (very amazing) technical support. Will be incredibly hard to find someone of equal calibre.
- A separate Concert Hall will take a good month to establish and possibly much longer to recreate the same setup and features as current GFF.


I'm all for a split, but the question arises... who PAYS?


Also, since money is an issue (it always is), why haven't we brought up a discussion on possible donation schemes?

Great post. Since almost nobody from Concerthall has donated any money, it is safe to assume that they don't have money to pay for a separate server. Still, you bring up some interesting issues and I really wish more concerthall people would actually get involved in this discussion since it affects them. You know, they'll all show up to bitch if all of the sudden, their precious attachments start to disappear.

Is there any way we can have a few people manage the sheet music and make torrents for it or something? $30 a month is a lot less than running a server? Is it really a lot to ask Concerthall people to donate money if they want their sheet music. Like I mentioned earlier, it costs $40 for a Barenreiter Urtext of the Prokofiev Piano Sonatas. Like I bet people download way more music than just a collection of sonata.

Deni: People have actually suggested the concerthall move onto its own separate server, and that is a potentially legitimate solution. I really don't think Mersenne is whining. Rather he is considering the pros and cons of that possible course of action. You should be happy concerthall people are actually saying something.

Originally Posted by Traumatized Rat

*ironic internet-speak, provocation followed by 'this isn't the place for this discussion' etc etc*

Edit: Hey Miles, what about moving sheet music attachments into Private FTPs or maybe integrating the Sheet Music into your VGM db project in some way? I mean if you are going to start removing sheet music attachments, perhaps you should give people a week to acquire everything they want before it is removed?

Whether or not my posting style's different from that of the wider community, I'm just telling you I reckon your posting style prevented discussion rather than inspiring it, that's all. No need to get all personal about it (this really isn't the place for this discussion though, of course) ^_^

Regardless of that, I think your suggested possible-solution of moving the whole shebang offsite is a good one and it seems like the benefits for GFF altogether will be excellent. Ever since the site passed out of Bobo's hands it seems as though it's been run much more for the community as a whole to keep up with all their friends on GFF - and I don't really see what it is we Concert-Hall-only types actually DO for the community rather than hog file space.

As Mersenne pointed out, there ARE negatives, but just for the Concert-Hall-only people and I think we should be prepared to accept those. One thing I would ask about is the legality issue. As it stands, this is GAMINGforce, and obviously plenty of things apart from games get discussed here. It means the Concert Hall is kinda 'hidden' when it comes to people just out looking for sheet music, and given the ever-increasing copyright clampdowns, that's good for us. Setting up a separate site just for sheet music and recordings downloads might be a bit more obvious, but this isn't something I know much about - does anyone have any ideas about this, or is it a non-issue anyway?

Originally Posted by Denicalis

God, stop being reactionary. No one here is asking for CH to fuck off and never come back. We just want them to learn to use the FTP servers.

I wasn't suggesting that that someone is asking CH to leave entirely. Neither was I trying to be reactionary.

Every idea needs to be weighed up - my putting it out on the table for discussion. If you think that the only solution is to get people to learn FTP servers, that doesn't contribute much to discussing why FTP is better or worse than other options.


EDIT: I'm not a technical wizard, but if one of the issues is disk space, could the CH attachments be stored on a separate harddrive owned by a CH member(s) but connected to the main GFF harddrive via WAN or some direct connection?

Originally Posted by Denicalis

God, stop being reactionary. No one here is asking for CH to fuck off and never come back. We just want them to learn to use the FTP servers.

To agree with Rat and Mersenne, I don't think those of us defending the idea of a split are being reactionary. If nothing else, I think most of us are aware that floucing off of the site with a cry of 'FINE I'M LEAVING AND TAKING MY FILEZ WITH ME STFU' wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the community and the upshot would just be US losing out and no-one else

Originally Posted by Traumatized Rat

When Miles addresses his concerns about the amount of bandwidth he has to pay for, people in here start accusing him of being 'disrespectful' and get all butthurt.

I just want to make this clear again, as you must be referring to me here: Even if bandwidth really was an issue (and Bigblah now said it isn't), there's nothing "disrespectful" at all with addressing such concerns. What I found disrespectful about it is exactly what Face has mentioned-- we've been told numerous times that attachments aren't an issue, but we're still getting kicked in the butt for them without warning.

Maybe I read too much into it. In any case, I'd rather just let this rest now.

Regarding the possible solutions, I've said on SB that FTP servers would be the easiest and best solution, definitely preferable to Mediafire etc in my opinion. There's nothing difficult at all about learning to use them.

Alternatively, we could continue using attachments, which would get deleted after a while, and use FTPs for long term storage. This way, people who only care about new stuff or requests don't have to log onto an FTP each time, but those who are interested in the "archive" aspect of the thread can still find all the stuff ever posted.

Except you haven't gotten kicked in the butt for it. And this is the warning. Making your entire point, you know, without merit.

Doesn't Zergrinch have space on his Dreamhost account dedicated for Concert Hall uploads? Dreamhost, for a low price, provides a ridiculous amount of space and transfer which is great for sharing purposes (although you can't run an active forum on there because CPU and memory are limited). In fact I'm using my own account as a VGMdb backup.

I really don't mind going the delete attachments in there after 3-6 months method I mentioned in my post. It wouldn't be that hard to do and the unused old attachments wouldn't be taking up space anymore. I don't want to be the bad guy and say you can't share music sheets anymore. I don't mind it at all. The only thing I don't like is all the space it's taking up and it's really my fault for not saying anything before it grew to the size it did.

Originally Posted by Miles

I really don't mind going the delete attachments in there after 3-6 months method I mentioned in my post. It wouldn't be that hard to do and the unused old attachments wouldn't be taking up space anymore. I don't want to be the bad guy and say you can't share music sheets anymore. I don't mind it at all. The only thing I don't like is all the space it's taking up and it's really my fault for not saying anything before it grew to the size it did.

It would make more sense to have some people in the concerthall in charge of managing the attachments. They could host all the old music on an FTP and have only the current material available on the boards say dating maybe a month or two back. This makes the most sense in my mind.

Miles, what do you think as far as the negative sentiment towards the concerthall from certain prominent members? Do you think there is a larger problem or is it just idle complaining.

It's the same sentiment towards My Stuff leechers, really. Business as usual.

Yeah, pretty much. The mass majority of us were ftp leechers of My Stuff at one point. So in the same vein there are bound to be music sheet leechers or Concert Hall-only folks that will eventually venture out and become a part of the community. Music has always been a big part of GFF and having a section for actual performers is something we really ought to keep.

Having some sort of organized archive ftps and attachments that are flushed every 3 to 6 months would be a very good idea. I wonder if we should give them their own My Stuff subforum for ftps/etc. to keep them from sinking under all the My Stuff threads and confusing all the sheetmusic leech newbs. war r mah sheet muxix ftpeees?!n i no seeee

SheetStuff?

I think the general concensus is that FTPs become the norm in Concerthall. We should probably stop quibbling about possible solutions and start thinking about how to put this plan into action. A lot of us have already agreed that this is the best option for relieving the stress on GFF's server. The 3-6 month flush idea is great too. I've been to forums that have that same policy and it has worked without a hitch. And a reupload thread where you request things that had been deleted would be necessary as well. So hows about we start enacting some of our current decisions? Or are there any objections still?

So be it.

My opinions are as follows:

• I want CH to remain, as it's a powerful draw for members and seems to generate some decent Adsense money. I don't like how it's so segregated from the rest of GFF, however. I'm aware that most of the visitors probably don't give two fucks about videogames or recycled 4chan jokes but the place shouldn't be an island, just the same. Unfortunately, I've no idea how to improve this problem.
  
• I agree that the disk space issue is foremost; filesharers in other forums are strongly encouraged to host their files offsite. Many people run excellent FTPs while others use Sendspace/Megaupload sites. These are both fine and I don't see any reason why the standard for filesharing in one forum should be shunned in another.
  
• There has been some unrest about the post quality in CH. Though I don't think we're ever going to reach Political Palace-level debates, I do agree it needs improvement. To that end, I support stronger enforcement of anti-spam standards, to the point of making examples out of repeat offenders if necessary. It will probably be an uphill battle but I don't believe "I like Tchaikovsky." constitutes worthwhile discussion.
  
• The only way to enact profound change and have it noticed is to make a dramatic gesture of it. By this, I'd like to purge all the attachments at once and restrict their use from now on. As much as people will protest, letting old attachments remain under a grandfather clause will not encourage reform.
  
• I want a moderator who is very active in Concert Hall, one who knows the ins, outs and who's-who of the place. I've heard mixed accounts of Waferballs' activity and though I'm not pointing any blame in his direction (CH is a big chore!) this forum won't improve under a laissez-faire watch. I'm not asking for any nominations from members, nor am I promising that there will be a new mod, so hold your keyboards. But I might poke around for input. If we're going to overhaul CH, the changes need to be enforced from the start.

That's where I stand on it all.

I vote that we go the FTP route and remove the attachments from GFF once everything has been set up.

It's easier to upload and download from an FTP than it is from Rapidshare.

I'm gonna go the purge all attachments over 4 months old route and see if that makes things better (which it should) and then do it regularly every month or two. This will pretty much eliminate the issue of them taking up so much space. You guys can still post requests as attachments. I don't care. Just remember that they won't exist anymore after 4 months.

I give it a week before I fall through with it but if you guys need more time to go back and download the rarer sheet musics let me know. If you'd like a FTP subforum to share a huge bulk of them all at once I can create one for you.