[Attention] Best Arranged/Doujin Contest: Pre-Discussion

Originally Posted by niki

I really don't know how to interpret what Liontamer said, honestly.

I'd personally go "anything that is from an official VGM work, wasn't officially released, and isn't arranged by it's original composer"

This doesnt seem to have any holes. Allows Virt nominations and prevents the Martin Galway example.

Well, composers can be fans. My reasoning doesn't disallow some composers from their own fan arrangements. The one thing I'd need clarification on is whether the work being legally released despite not being organized by the copyright holder is a killer. AFAIK, doujin means fan works. That doesn't preclude something like The OneUps Volume 1 even though OneUp Studios paid the compulsory license fees to legally release the album. Best of the Best, Volume 1 seems dicier, but that's just the same example with more notable artists who are game composers.

Not that I'm arguing, but along with adding "isn't arranged by it's original composer", I think my scope of "if the copyright holders aren't the ones who organized the creation of the album, it's doujin" is solid.

So, to clarify (for myself), this is what you're saying, niki?

-The arrangement must be of a song that comes from an officially released game.
-The arrangement was not part of an officially released album.
-The arrangement was not arranged by its original composer.

I'm still not sure about what constitutes an officially released album, though.

Originally Posted by Liontamer

Well, composers can be fans. My reasoning doesn't disallow some composers from their own fan arrangements. The one thing I'd need clarification on is whether the work being legally released despite not being organized by the copyright holder is a killer. AFAIK, doujin means fan works. That doesn't preclude something like The OneUps Volume 1 even though OneUp Studios paid the compulsory license fees to legally release the album. Best of the Best, Volume 1 seems dicier, but that's just the same example with more notable artists who are game composers.

Not that I'm arguing, but along with adding "isn't arranged by it's original composer", I think my scope of "if the copyright holders aren't the ones who organized the creation of the album, it's doujin" is solid.

Yeah, I just gave a different meaning to "copyright holder", heh. ^_^;

Stuff like OneUps are kinda rare anyway, aren't they ?

By "officially released album", I just mean commercially released the regular way, Drakken.

o hay guyz

I'm just going to be quick about most of the questions, since it's all pretty much been said already:

• I'd prefer doujin only, but no big deal of pro arranges are allowed too. (Calling from Heaven from Dracula Battle 1 incoming)
• I'd like to know what the source tracks of the arrangements are, but I don't see it necessary to actually provide them. To be honest, most of us will probably have most of them anyway.
• Reseeding is silly, but go ahead if it floats your boat.
• SAUS nomination process is keen. Makes it easier for both organization (no calculations) and nominating (no figuring out "okay how many points does this nomination have right now maybe I should bump it").

I'd say go 256 tracks and everyone picks 10 apiece, but I'm honestly a little unsure about how many nominators we're actually going to get. Part of me is a little pessimistic that we'll even be able to get 26. Then again, since we're allowing stuff like OCR too (as I think we should), I'm definitely hoping that won't be a problem. I'd selfishly say to go with first come first serve, because I already have a bunch of songs picked out, but it'd be fairer to do it GoldfishX's way.

Trying to figure out an airtight definition of doujin seems like wasted effort to me, on account of all the edge cases and fiddling with "oh but then this would be allowed and that would be bad" and "oh but then this wouldn't be allowed and it's definitely doujin." I think what we've got in this thread so far doesn't exclude anything that should be allowed, and I think it'd be easiest just to go with something simple assuming good faith and just keep an eye out on nominations to make sure no one tries to pull a fast one.

As far as working definitions go, I rather like the elegance of Liontamer's, except that it only handles tracks on albums and not standalone ones like those on OC ReMix. It gets across to me at least that a doujin is a fan work, where a fan is neither the person who composed the track nor anyone who commissioned the track (the game company, assuming they hold the copyright instead of the artist). A fan could be a guy on OC ReMix who makes free mixes, The OneUps and their legally licensed and commercially released CD that they arranged and published on their own, and even pro composers arranging other pro composers' works on something like Best of the Best Vol. 1 (although there are some tracks on there that the composers arranged themselves, so those would be out); all of these are included without needing to haggle over things like what constitutes an "official album."

Originally Posted by Drakken

Wouldn't that allow albums where professional composers arranged other composers' works, though? How do you tell who organized it?

Like, where would Atelier Iris ETERNAL MANA Arranged Tracks DECEITFUL WINGS fall? I wouldn't call it a doujin, because it is an "official" release with a catalog # and everything. But how do I know who organized its creation?

I think, in practically all cases, it's going to be pretty obvious whether or not the album was "officially" or "unofficially" organized, and in those cases where it's not, whatever definition of doujin we use sure ain't going to help figure out whether the track should or shouldn't be allowed.

In the case of Deceitful Wings, it's an official arrange album organized by Gust, so it's out any way you slice it, even though S.S.H. was the arranger. Same as the AIEM2 album arrange album. The Gust sound team logo is on both albums, Gust is all over the production (check this scan of Red Lucifer Rising), and the albums are in Gust's Atelier Iris page and sold in Gust's official web store.

Now, if it so happened that these albums did not involve Gust in any way, and S.S.H. had done the arrangements completely on his own and somehow still gotten them released on Team Entertainment's label and in stores, then I would say they'd be eligible.

I'm still a little confused on the aspect of doujin works/official works, and that's because I can think of some examples that are murky and I don't know all the information. I should be able to find enough nominations either way, though.

I think it would be nice to provide source tracks for all songs, just for anyone who's interested. But it shouldn't be a necessary part of the contest, to know the source song or to hear it.

"if the copyright holders aren't the ones who organized or authorized the creation of the track, it's doujin"

How 'bout it?

BTW, my own personal preference aside, the main reason why I think this should be a doujin-only contest is simply because the breadth of material out there would easily allow separate competitions to be done for both pro and fan work.

Originally Posted by Liontamer

"if the copyright holders aren't the ones who organized or authorized the creation of the track, it's doujin"

How 'bout it?

I think it's good; if there aren't any objections in the near future, I'll add it to the first post.

Since no one's really come forward and argued strongly for a more inclusive contest, I think we can consider the matter settled, and I'll update the first post accordingly.

Sounds good.

So the other issue that needs to be settled before we start trying to set up a tentative timeline is the nomination process. Most people are in favor of the SAUS format. I think Goldfish's modified SAUS format is good. To summarize what he said:

Everyone nominates (up to) 10 tracks. We would set an ending date for nominations (rather than stop noms after we reach 256 as with SAUS). Once that date comes, we would go through the nominations and take an equal # from each member. So, say 30 people nominate 10 songs each. That's 300 songs. They can't all be in; only 256 songs can. But we want everyone to have an equal # of noms (as much as possible). So we take the first 8 noms from each member's list (240 songs so far), then the #9 nom from the first 16 people who posted (to bring us to a total of 256).

As Goldfish said, this prevents people from not getting in on the contest due to posting their nominations after the cap's already been reached, but it also will likely reward (in a very minor way) those who post their lists earlier.

Yes? No?

Here's an interesting question: is there a required file format?

I ask because I know an absolutely stunning fan arrangement done completely in MIDI. Converting MIDI to mp3 is an absolute chore (I'm not even sure it can be done at all) but the track definitely meets all other elegibility guidelines.

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

Here's an interesting question: is there a required file format?

I ask because I know an absolutely stunning fan arrangement done completely in MIDI. Converting MIDI to mp3 is an absolute chore (I'm not even sure it can be done at all) but the track definitely meets all other elegibility guidelines.

The issue with MIDI is that they may sound different on one system from another. Why don't you just wavewrite them ? They'd sound how *you* hear them, at least. =/

Quote:

Now, if it so happened that these albums did not involve Gust in any way, and S.S.H. had done the arrangements completely on his own and somehow still gotten them released on Team Entertainment's label and in stores, then I would say they'd be eligible.

I think removing the notion that it doesn't belong to the regular market from the term "doujin" is kinda wrong, but heh if you guys all agree I'm not gonna fight over it. =j

Originally Posted by niki

The issue with MIDI is that they may sound different on one system from another. Why don't you just wavewrite them ? They'd sound how *you* hear them, at least. =/

I must confess that I haven't any good idea what you mean by this.

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

I must confess that I haven't any good idea what you mean by this.

Open the MIDI in Winamp. Go to Winamp's Options menu, then under Plugins, look for Output. Change it from whatever it's on (probably Nullsoft DirectSound Output) to Nullsoft Disk Writer. Click on Configure (or just double-click Disk Writer) and set what directory you want to write the .wav to. Then, you can play the .midi and it will write it as a .wav file. You can then convert the .wav to an .mp3 using your conversion program of choice (preferably RazorLame).

At least, that's how I would do it. niki might have a better way (though this way is quick and easy).

Originally Posted by Drakken

Everyone nominates (up to) 10 tracks. We would set an ending date for nominations (rather than stop noms after we reach 256 as with SAUS). Once that date comes, we would go through the nominations and take an equal # from each member. So, say 30 people nominate 10 songs each. That's 300 songs. They can't all be in; only 256 songs can. But we want everyone to have an equal # of noms (as much as possible). So we take the first 8 noms from each member's list (240 songs so far), then the #9 nom from the first 16 people who posted (to bring us to a total of 256).

It would definitely make the process easier for the organizers, and would be fairer than the strict first-come, first-serve that the original SAUS. And, unlike that contest, the order of tracks would matter slightly (as the lowest ones might get sloughed off).

I think that would work fine for the purposes of this contest, since I doubt we'll have so many participants that anyone will wind up with fewer than five tracks making it in. And, if someone has just one or two tracks to put up, they're guaranteed in a way that BSC noms might not be. We'll see if anyone objects; if not, I'l add it to the first post.

As for format, I think that .mp3 is the only way to go. We could always post an original version in an alternate format (as is done in SoTW) if neccessary.

Originally Posted by TheKnightOfNee

I'm still a little confused on the aspect of doujin works/official works, and that's because I can think of some examples that are murky and I don't know all the information.

Well then have out with them. It's good to get this stuff out of the way first.

Originally Posted by niki

I think removing the notion that it doesn't belong to the regular market from the term "doujin" is kinda wrong, but heh if you guys all agree I'm not gonna fight over it. =j

I was mainly just throwing that one out there as a hypothetical, since I don't know of any uncommissioned arrange albums published by a major label. I don't really plan on nominating anything that close to the line between doujin and professional, and I don't think many other people do either, but I'd be okay with any of it showing up. Just my take.

Well, mostly everything seems to be resolved so far. I'd just like give a vote to:

1. using the ultra-sleek SAUS nomination phase, GoldfishX rev.
2. four-way matches, as Crash mentioned, if only for the first round
3. reseeding! Leads to less predictable results, and more exciting!
4. following the same timetable as last BSC's (kudos to Dr. Uzuki)

With regards to information for original tracks, I don't think it's necessary, but would be nice if included. Volunteering? I could give a hand at thread creation if the need arises.

P.S.: And not that I thought of nominating something for them yet, but where do bands like Minibosses/The Advantage stand in all of this?

Originally Posted by Draconis

P.S.: And not that I thought of nominating something for them yet, but where do bands like Minibosses/The Advantage stand in all of this?

Definitely in, I'd say.