Milosevic dies in jail

Originally Posted by Devo

The U.S. would probably laugh at the U.N. and basically give it the finger (but in a diplomatic sense).

Aren't they doing it all the time already?

Guess so =o

Starting wars, especially when there is, at the time, apparent reasonable cause for the war, is completely different from what Milosevic did, which was basically to directly target and kill thousands of people of an ethnic group merely for the fact that they are in that group.
Genocide and war are different, and if you think they aren't, you need to keep quiet about international affairs, 'cuz you clearly don't really know what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by t(-_-t)

Starting wars, especially when there is, at the time, apparent reasonable cause for the war, is completely different from what Milosevic did, which was basically to directly target and kill thousands of people of an ethnic group merely for the fact that they are in that group.
Genocide and war are different, and if you think they aren't, you need to keep quiet about international affairs, 'cuz you clearly don't really know what you are talking about.

Regardless of a "argument" for war you can still be prosecuted of war crimes if you violated numerous human rights and basically committed acts of inhumanity against civilians.

Originally Posted by Musharraf

[...]It's just that without a sentence, you're not guilty of a crime, law is easy as that!

You might still be guilty of a crime. Just because a court hasn't told be that I am indeed guilty doesn't mean I'm not. It just means that the court was not convinced of my being guilty. I mean even though Hitler committed suicide he's still guilty of a lot of bad things, isn't he?

Quote:

Criminals like Saddam or Milosevic should feel the same pain they made their victims feel. But im afraid you cant make someone feel a million deaths -.-

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I've never understood that. Why should you create even more suffering in the world than there already is? I mean why should you make someone suffer because he made someone suffer? That way you're not better than him, because you have caused as much suffering, not? Anyway, as an utilitarian, I think that it's wrong to cause even more suffering than there already is, no matter who is the one suffering ...
Generally I think that justice is the wrong way to go about problems. The world is unfair, it's just the way it is ...

Ultimately the problem with convicting Bush or Blair on warcrimes is proving whether or not they personally implemented policies that lead to Geneva violations or Crimes Against Humanity.

Even assuming they didn't, you could still get Bush on the fact that he is the Commander in Chief of US Armed forces, and that any policies commited by said entity come back on his shoulders, regardless of any ignorance on the President's behalf.

As far as Blair is concerned, since "sending young soldiers to war" isn't an actual crime in any sense, the worst thing I can think of the British being responsible for is compliance with the indiscriminate use of White Phosphorous by Americans in civilian areas.

Originally Posted by Devo

Regardless of a "argument" for war you can still be prosecuted of war crimes if you violated numerous human rights and basically committed acts of inhumanity against civilians.

Would this make it possible to dig up Abraham Lincoln and put him on trial for war crimes, then? What about Franklin Roosevelt, Winston Churchill, Harry Truman or Lyndon Johnson?

Ramsey Clark and his group want to try Bill Clinton for war crimes, too, actually.

Originally Posted by gyges

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I've never understood that. Why should you create even more suffering in the world than there already is? I mean why should you make someone suffer because he made someone suffer? That way you're not better than him, because you have caused as much suffering, not? Anyway, as an utilitarian, I think that it's wrong to cause even more suffering than there already is, no matter who is the one suffering ...
Generally I think that justice is the wrong way to go about problems. The world is unfair, it's just the way it is ...

Unfortunately, I think you utilitarianism is incomplete.
One thing you have to take into consideration is the fact that a lot of people will not be happy until justice has been administered. As such, it is a necessary evil for the happiness of the people.

Quote:

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I've never understood that. Why should you create even more suffering in the world than there already is? I mean why should you make someone suffer because he made someone suffer? That way you're not better than him, because you have caused as much suffering, not? Anyway, as an utilitarian, I think that it's wrong to cause even more suffering than there already is, no matter who is the one suffering ...
Generally I think that justice is the wrong way to go about problems. The world is unfair, it's just the way it is ...

So then, what is your solution for people that commit heinous acts? Slap them on the wrist, and hope that they can be rehabilitated? Tell me, have you ever seen the movie A Clockwork Orange?

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

Would this make it possible to dig up Abraham Lincoln and put him on trial for war crimes, then? What about Franklin Roosevelt, Winston Churchill, Harry Truman or Lyndon Johnson?

Ramsey Clark and his group want to try Bill Clinton for war crimes, too, actually.

It depends on how much the UN (for international conflicts) believes the ends justify the means doesn't it?

Originally Posted by gyges

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I've never understood that. Why should you create even more suffering in the world than there already is? I mean why should you make someone suffer because he made someone suffer? That way you're not better than him, because you have caused as much suffering, not? Anyway, as an utilitarian, I think that it's wrong to cause even more suffering than there already is, no matter who is the one suffering ...
Generally I think that justice is the wrong way to go about problems. The world is unfair, it's just the way it is ...

You should never say something like that on an American message board, see above to find out why

I'm kind of with gyges on this one. There's a thin line between revenge and "justice", if there is one at all.

Dude died. What would his punishment have been? To die?

Originally Posted by t(-_-t)

As such, it is a necessary evil for the happiness of the people.

That may be true, but is this valid reasoning?

Quote:

You should never say something like that on an American message board, see above to find out why

It's not as if we metaphorically dropped his pants and verbally sodomozed him for this. Or are you saying that we're behaving unreasonably?

Originally Posted by t(-_-t)

Starting wars, especially when there is, at the time, apparent reasonable cause for the war, is completely different from what Milosevic did, which was basically to directly target and kill thousands of people of an ethnic group merely for the fact that they are in that group.
Genocide and war are different,

Ethnic cleansing during the Yugoslavia wars, was participied by all three groups. Serbs, Croats and Bosnians. The Croats wanted to cleanse Croatia from all Non-Croats and to do the same with the Croatian Part in Bosnia. The Bosnians wanted to create with the help of the Mujahedeen, a pan-islamistic state. And the Serbs wanted to annex the Serbian part of Bosnia and the Krajna in Croatia, by force such as genocide.
I can understand if the UN says "We have to do something!" But does this give you a reason to bomb innocent citizens, schools, hospitals and so on?

But what I find it somehow strange is, that the US has started wars without a UN mandate like fo example the bombig of Yugoslavia in 1999 or the war in Iraq 2003.

Originally Posted by t(-_-t)

and if you think they aren't, you need to keep quiet about international affairs, 'cuz you clearly don't really know what you are talking about.

Well for me the Balkans aren't international affairs since I am from the Balkans, from Bosnia and this has something to do with my homeland, so I think, to be as modest as possible, that I know what I'm talking about if the topic is the Balkans.

Originally Posted by gyges

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I've never understood that. Why should you create even more suffering in the world than there already is? I mean why should you make someone suffer because he made someone suffer? That way you're not better than him, because you have caused as much suffering, not? Anyway, as an utilitarian, I think that it's wrong to cause even more suffering than there already is, no matter who is the one suffering ...
Generally I think that justice is the wrong way to go about problems. The world is unfair, it's just the way it is ...

So what you're basically saying is that justice is just thinly disguised vengeance?

Whether it is, or it isn't you wouldn't be violating your utilitarianist beliefs by supporting justice. Since I'm pretty sure the victims would be happy to see justice done. The needs of the many still outweigh the needs of the few.

But people can be irrational; so maybe they shouldn't always be given what they actually want.

Originally Posted by Eleo

But people can be irrational; so maybe they shouldn't always be given what they actually want.

Since we're speaking in such generalities; not everybody that wants justice wants to see the accused hanged.

Which is why most countries don't have the death penalty. Since in every case it's already too late. Yet justice still needs to upheld, otherwise anarchy would reign.

Originally Posted by Eleo

But people can be irrational; so maybe they shouldn't always be given what they actually want.

Clearly the idea of utilitarianism is foriegn to you.
Utilitarianism gives little importance to what is "rational" and really has only the objective of doing the most good for the most people. So, if it is irrational for justice to be administered to Milosevic, but a vast majority of people will be pleased and happy with that, then by all means, justice should be administered.

Originally Posted by Eleo

But people can be irrational; so maybe they shouldn't always be given what they actually want.

Also needs are not always wants. If you don't punish those who commit murder than what's to stop others from doing it? Not all people are afraid to take a life, it's the consequences that keep them from doing so.