Why not legalize prostitution?

Originally Posted by Divest

No, no.

The complete opposite. I'm saying smoking pot is more harmful.

And I've heard of plenty of deaths related to marijuana.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't saying "smoking pot is more harmful than cigarettes" the same as what sass said "smoking butts is less harmful than smoking pot"

Therefore, what you are arguing is the same as what she asked, and therefore not the complete opposite.

Anyhow...

I've always considered smoking anything to be equally dangerous. In the big picture, you're inhaling something into your lungs that they weren't meant to have put in them. Any kind of smoke is unhealthy. Campfire smoke can kill you if you breath in too much. So arguing the semantics of 'is tobacco smoke worse than marijuana' isn't gonna go anywhere.

Originally Posted by Divest

No, no.

The complete opposite. I'm saying smoking pot is more harmful.

Divest, did you read what I wrote. =/

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And I've heard of plenty of deaths related to marijuana.

I'll concede the point if you can prove more deaths nationally from marijuana than from cigarettes. =D

At the same time, we're losing the original point of the OP. I'm not sure if that's kosher or not, considering it's pretty much KP arguing with everyone who uses their brain.

On the topic of Marijuana being harmful. I had a friend that smoked pot. He died at the age of 19 from a rare lung disease. Now, I'm no doctor but the fact that it was something involving his lungs, just kinda leaves me to believe it might have had something to do with all the pot he smoked.

Originally Posted by DarkMageOzzie

On the topic of Marijuana being harmful. I had a friend that smoked pot. He died at the age of 19 from a rare lung disease. Now, I'm no doctor but the fact that it was something involving his lungs, just kinda leaves me to believe it might have had something to do with all the pot he smoked.

He died at 19 due to a rare lung disease. He shouldn't have been smoking anything, dude.

He didn't die because of marijuana use - the shit just sped up the degradation of his lungs, I imagine. But then, I'm not a doctor.

But seriously. Someone prove that pot kills more people nationally/annually than cigarettes! I'd love to see that one.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

He died at 19 due to a rare lung disease. He shouldn't have been smoking anything, dude.

He didn't die because of marijuana use - the shit just sped up the degradation of his lungs, I imagine. But then, I'm not a doctor.

But seriously. Someone prove that pot kills more people nationally/annually than cigarettes! I'd love to see that one.

He didn't have the lung disease when he was smoking. He was in the hospital for 3 months dieing when they realized he had whatever it was. The bad thing is it sounded like the doctors didn't even know what it was he had.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Divest, did you read what I wrote. =/


I'll concede the point if you can prove more deaths nationally from marijuana than from cigarettes. =D

At the same time, we're losing the original point of the OP. I'm not sure if that's kosher or not, considering it's pretty much KP arguing with everyone who uses their brain.

Yes, yes, I read what you wrote but I'm here at work and I had to switch quickly between here and just hit the post button. I expected to have time to go back to it, but I see that wasn't the case. I may end up doing that again to this post so forgive me if that happens. Anyways, back to the discussion:

You have to understand that I'm comparing cannabis to tobacco directly, meaning tit for tat what the drug containts, not necessarily the rate of consumption.

It's well documented that the chemicals found in marijuana are more harmful than the chemicals found in tobacco, but tobacco is consumed at a more frequent rate. Having said that, marijuana is still technically the more dangerous drug (especially when it comes to short-term effects). You can argue that the reason tobacco is more harmful is because of the addiction it causes but you'd do well to remember that weed is an especially habit forming drug. Not to mention it does horrible things to your immune system.

Also, are we talking short term or long term effects here? Short term, come on. Cigarettes don't alter your mind whatsoever whereas cannabis most definitely does. Long term it's moreso a question of your ability to quit smoking cigarettes. If your average cannabis smoker were to smoke as habitually as your average tobacco smoker, the numbers would be higher. Then again, I have known a couple of pot smokers who DID smoke as habitually as a tobacco smoker and let me tell you firsthand, their health was complete shit. They would smoke [pot] like crazy for about two weeks, get extremely sick for about a week and cough up phlegm, then go back to smoking. Eventually they stopped because of this reason.

Divest, you're killing your own thread. I really don't want to respond to a tangent on a tangent but if I must: you've completely misunderstood me. When I say use the word 'many' I don't mean 'any'. I'm not sure why, or how, you thought that. I got a sneak peak of one of your posts before you edited and I know you're aware of this to some degree. I am not going to elaborate any more than that in this topic.

I'd like to get back to arguing with people who use their brains on the prostitution query if I could. The reason I brought up drugs was because I thought there were some interesting parallels to the prostitution. We really shouldn't be focusing on the drug issue itself though. At least not here.

It's been brought up that many (not any) of you disagree with me on what is a moral issue and what is just an issue. Hopefully by now we've gotten to a point where we at least understand how the millions of people like myself think. I'm not demanding that any (not many) of you be forced to agree with me. It's a controversial issue in the real world and it shouldn't surprise anyone that it became controversial here as well, if only because of myself.

I'm sure it's frustrating that what appears so basic and logical is not getting through to someone who writes well enough that he should know better. (On second thought, maybe me no write so well either) But I don't share most of your morals, and I'm entitled to my opinion, and even the logic I use with regards to serving the public is radically different. I'm enjoying the debate a lot and I appreciate the opposing point of view. As i said earlier, i agree with Denicalis that there's no chance I can convince you to see it my way, and I'm not going to change either.

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

As i said earlier, i agree with Denicalis that there's no chance I can convince you to see it my way, and I'm not going to change either.

That's fine and dandy, more than likely a lot of people won't change their views either. My biggest beef is that you are saying prostitution is harmful in a lot of ways, and therefore should continue to be illegal no matter what the circumstances are. Because of your religious/personal beliefs, this is the reason why, and apparently, the only reason why you think it should continue to be illegal.

The problem I have with that angle is you are refusing to see that prostitution has the POTENTIAL to do a lot of good, if it is legalized. You look right at the facts and ignore them completely because of your moral beliefs. What we don't understand is how you could be so against something that would cause a lot of certain crime rates to go down, help stop the spread of STD's and improve the well being of a lot of people.

As an example AGAIN: If your daughter turned 18 years old, and despite your best efforts to shield her from the world, she decides to become a prostitute, and there is nothing you can do about it. Would you rather have her walking the streets, getting beaten by some guy if she doesn't make a certain ammount of cash, or rather, would you want her in an establishment where at any time she can deny service, get good health benefits, or just quit at anytime and do something else with her life?

Or will you be a typical bible thumper, and assume she was never a part of your family to begin with?

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

When I say use the word 'many' I don't mean 'any'. I'm not sure why, or how, you thought that.

I never said that you said "any". I said the word "any". The reason I said "any" was because I was stating that there wasn't any drug that was less harmful than cigarettes. Do you see where I'm coming from now?
Now since you said "many", besides the drug we're debating about now (marijuana), which drugs do you seriously think cigarettes top in terms of negative effects?

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I am not going to elaborate any more than that in this topic.

You didn't elaborate at all. You merely said "You didn't understand me!!! " When I clearly did. How could I misinterperate

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I think alcohol and cigarettes are much more dangerous to users and to society than many illegal drugs.

Now, I'm asking you, which drugs are you talking about? Sounds to me like the reason you don't want to elaborate is because you know you said something completely stupid and don't have the logic to back it up. The closest you could get to reason would be pot but you already blew that by saying "many".

Sorry Divest, good question, but not here. You can check out the RSA's findings in the Commision on Illegal Drugs if you wish.

Grail: To me the good that would result from legalized prostitution doesn't nearly match the good if it were abolished altogether and I'm talking about exterminating it even in its illegal form. I'm not ignoring the facts. I'm aware of them and still have arrived at my conclusion. Why do so many people automatically dismiss statistics that show that there is a drastic increase in the amount of abuse and violence against American workers in the sex industry? And that includes when it is legal. Even though I know it's highly unlikely that prostitution can be eradicated completely in places where it is illegal I'm unwillingly to give up on that cause. Because if it could be stopped entirely it would benefit society better than if were simply legalized and given government support. Disagree with me if you wish, but that is my reasoning.

If I hadn't mentioned it before, I would be heartbroken if my child became a prostitute. But that's not enough to magically make me want to alter the system so that's she protected from doing something that I told her not to do and that the law told her not to do too. In the end I am more concerned for her soul than her physical well being which is why I would prefer her to grow up in an environment that more closely shares my views.

Haha oh man. I don't even know how to respond to that either.

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

Grail: To me the good that would result from legalized prostitution doesn't nearly match the good if it were abolished altogether and I'm talking about exterminating it even in its illegal form. I'm not ignoring the facts. I'm aware of them and still have arrived at my conclusion. Why do so many people automatically dismiss statistics that show that there is a drastic increase in the amount of abuse and violence against American workers in the sex industry? And that includes when it is legal. Even though I know it's highly unlikely that prostitution can be eradicated completely in places where it is illegal I'm unwillingly to give up on that cause. Because if it could be stopped entirely it would benefit society better than if were simply legalized and given government support. Disagree with me if you wish, but that is my reasoning.

Yes, and if I could close my eyes and wish away all the BAD BAD things in the world, why, that would just be happy cakes and gum drops! Oh boy yes it would! Grow up. Violence, war, and prostitution have been as old as time itself. Instead of closing your eyes and wishing away the problem, you coudl be doing so much more by at least enacting laws that would control it, and make it safer. Course with violence and war, well, the only laws that go into effect make each case there more effiencent and a faster way to kill. So go figure.

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If I hadn't mentioned it before, I would be heartbroken if my child became a prostitute. But that's not enough to magically make me want to alter the system so that's she protected from doing something that I told her not to do and that the law told her not to do too. In the end I am more concerned for her soul than her physical well being which is why I would prefer her to grow up in an environment that more closely shares my views.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want my kid growing up and selling her hoochie on an everyday basis. But I have learned that the more you shelter, and try to keep your child from finding out the bad things in this world, the more they are curious about it, the more attracted to it they become. It's human nature to be adventurous, curious, and moreso, seek what is forbidden. Your fucking Eve knew that much, according to the bible.

And as far as growing up in an environment that shares your views, that's a good start. Move to some place where prostitution isn't as widespread. Oh, and if she ever DOES ask what prostitution is, make sure you tell her that it's a filthy race of people that have no rights, no morals...they don't take baths, they eat babies and they all should be stoned because they belong to that part of society. That should scare her enough.

Maybe the war on prostitution is doomed. Another similarity to the drug issue. But you're asking me to condone something that I firmly believe is wrong. I can't do that no matter how bad we're losing.

Hey, I agree with you about the tendency of sheltering to backfire. It's important for people, even those as conservative as me, to be knowledgeable about the world and be able to handle exposure to it's less than savory parts. It's better to be able to deal with and resist temptation than to hide from it all your life.

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In the end I am more concerned for her soul than her physical well being which is why I would prefer her to grow up in an environment that more closely shares my views.

I may be taking this out of context... but you are basically just confirming that you want her to follow YOUR views of what is right and wrong, and refuse to help your daughter if she were to ever develop her own.

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To me the good that would result from legalized prostitution doesn't nearly match the good if it were abolished altogether and I'm talking about exterminating it even in its illegal form. I'm not ignoring the facts. I'm aware of them and still have arrived at my conclusion. Why do so many people automatically dismiss statistics that show that there is a drastic increase in the amount of abuse and violence against American workers in the sex industry? And that includes when it is legal. Even though I know it's highly unlikely that prostitution can be eradicated completely in places where it is illegal I'm unwillingly to give up on that cause. Because if it could be stopped entirely it would benefit society better than if were simply legalized and given government support. Disagree with me if you wish, but that is my reasoning.

Statistics show in countries where it is legal, to have much lower rates of rape and other sexual crimes. By taking prostitution off the street, you can take the employee's off the street and put them in a work environment where they would have the right to complain to police. Right now they know they have no one to turn to since their job is illegal, even though their pimp AND customers abuse them, and often end up dead or traumatized. However we've repeated this too many times already, lets get to the point.

The biggest problem here , and the reason why you will never change your mind (which very few people ever do ) is you are being selfish. You don't care how making prostitution legal would help others, or how many deaths/rapes it would prevent. You will defend where you stand to the very last, even if it would mean the death of 500 innocent people this year alone, simply because you think it is 'icky', and because your belief doesn't allow it.

That would be like Atheist saying "hey, religion and church are against my morals and I do not agree with them, therefore they should not be allowed even though on a logical level I have no problem with it and may help others and the community.". So then all of a sudden, your religion is outlawed, and illegal. How would you feel about that? To all of a sudden not have the freedom to follow your religion, all simply because the idea was 'icky' in someone's mind.

Lets just replace a word now

"hey, legal prostitution and sex are against my morals and I do not agree with them, therefore they should not be allowed even though on a logical level I have no problem with it and may help others and the community."

Wow, by just changing two subject words, I changed it from something that is against you (making church and religion illegal), into a sentence that is almost exactly what you are stating (making prostitution illegal). I bet the original sentence sounded pretty stupid to you and any other religious people, yet that is almost exactly what you are saying to us.

It all comes down to your selfish belief's and morals. "This is my belief, and I will be damned if I let you do something else, even though I agree with you that it would mean better treatment for those in the business, and maybe even prevent poor Jennifer from getting raped next week"

Here is a better scenario, as you seem to keep bringing up the daughter thing. What if your daughter got raped by some drunken guy, because he had an itch in his pants and could not pick up a girl, so he see's your daughter walking home from a friends place near a dark alley, and in his drunken mind, decides to have fun with her. Had prostitution been legal, he could have paid some woman for the fun and been done. She would have gone home safe, your daughter would have gone home safe, and Uncle Sam would have an extra $10 in his wallet. Sure, it probably won't be the exact case with your daughter, but I bet that scenario has happened more than once, resulting in the rape of some innocent girl somewhere in the world, and many more like it.

(I actually wanted to write my freshman paper on legalizing prostitution, but I was afraid of the negative connotations. *sigh* what an insecure kid I was back then)

Not much into replying in the Political Palace, but I'm curious: Killerpineapple, do you honestly think it's possible to COMPLETELY remove prostitution in the United States/world/wherever-you-live?

You seem intelligent if not stubbornly religious (nothing personal), so I'm just going to assume that you'll say "no, it's no possible." So then, rather than making the act illegal, wouldn't it be better to legalize it? (the 'lesser of two evils' so to speak?) A lot of things would be better; this isn't some sort of hypothesis based on what-ifs, we've already seen the positive effects of legalizing prostitution in many other countries, right?

Why is there such a negative feeling with sex/sex before marriage? I'm not sexually active person myself, but I honestly don't see what the big deal is; why would providing sex for cash (and health care and tax cuts!) worse than something like modeling? I understand that it's a precious and sacred thing to many, but not everyone feels like that, right? I mean, what gives you the right to preach and control if you can't back-up your ideas with facts and logic and instead fall back to your gut instinct, what 'you feel is right'?

Originally Posted by Garret

I may be taking this out of context... but you are basically just confirming that you want her to follow YOUR views of what is right and wrong, and refuse to help your daughter if she were to ever develop her own.

Nope, that's not it at all. I would always be available to help anyone I care about. It's important to not stop loving someone just because they're going down the wrong path. I disagree with conservatives who disown their children because they're gay or what have you. I try to learn from the parable of the prodigal son.

Originally Posted by Garret

The biggest problem here , and the reason why you will never change your mind (which very few people ever do ) is you are being selfish. You don't care how making prostitution legal would help others, or how many deaths/rapes it would prevent. You will defend where you stand to the very last, even if it would mean the death of 500 innocent people this year alone, simply because you think it is 'icky', and because your belief doesn't allow it.

I'm repeating myself yet again but I am not going to condone something that I know is wrong. If we can eradicate it completely in its legal and illegal forms then it would help more people than simply legalizing it everywhere. Why does it make me such a bad person to strive for the best? Studies have shown that people in the legal sex industry (including erotic dancers) are statistically much more likely to be the victim of abuse or sexual crimes because of their job. I've only perused studies done in America, but I still urge others to do so as well. Legalizing prostitution won't make that problem of violence and abuse toward sex workers go away because it already exists where such professions are allowed. The only way to make those sort of crimes disappear is to outlaw the profession entirely and weed out those who do it illegally.

Originally Posted by Garret

That would be like Atheist saying "hey, religion and church are against my morals and I do not agree with them, therefore they should not be allowed even though on a logical level I have no problem with it and may help others and the community.". So then all of a sudden, your religion is outlawed, and illegal. How would you feel about that? To all of a sudden not have the freedom to follow your religion, all simply because the idea was 'icky' in someone's mind.

Interesting point. (Can we stop with the "icky" already though?) The anti-prostitution support does not come solely from the religious populace. A more than significant amount of people oppose prostitution on moral beliefs not tied to any religion. There are many states where the majority of voters are liberal and yet prostitution is still only legal in one of them. There are places in the world where people are not allowed to practice religion by law. Of course it would be a drag for me, but I'd still continue to worship. It's unlikely that an officer of the law would feel compelled to arrest me since the way I worship has a negligible effect on my community and does not have any sort of negative impact. Or maybe I would get arrested. It happens in China even today. It's happened many places within the last 100 years. It happened to the apostles. I would feel burdened, but not so much that I would regret my faith.

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Lets just replace a word now

"hey, legal prostitution and sex are against my morals and I do not agree with them, therefore they should not be allowed even though on a logical level I have no problem with it a