The Immigration Protests

Seriously, though, waving around flags that aren't of one's own nationality is a pretty empty practice.

I mean, do people really need to see the flag to know you're Irish? You'd think they would have stopped at the freckles, or the red hair, or the small penis.

Originally Posted by PUG1911

Why?*

The school is in Houston Texas, USA..it is supported by taxes paid by citizens of the USA. It is not in Mexico. Mexico pays no money to support the school. The school is not an establishment of the Mexican government. Mexico does nothing for this school, provides nothing for the support of this school and owns none of the property of the school. All of the students in the school are not Mexican citizens. There is no reason to fly the flag of a soveriegn foriegn nation over any government building in the USA.

Originally Posted by gukarma

No one is demanding free hand-outs. All the illegal immigrants I know are just hard-working people who want to do nothing but cover the jobs that Americans don't want.

That's the problem. Americans will do any job for a decent and fair wage. Illegals reduce our labor wages by increasing the labor pool, and it fundamentally changes the equation. Hence, most Americans are against illegal immigration.

For instance, I've seen figures that's stated there's about eight million unemployed Americans right now. I've also seen figures that state there's up to fifteen million illegals in our country. So if all the illegals were removed from this country it'd be easy to assume that.

a) We'd have no unemployed Americans.
b) Since demand for workers is so high, wages/benefits will also be high. In fact I bet every sixteen year old could get a decent paying job. (By decent I mean above the current minimum wage)

Bottom line, Mexico's problems are the result of their corrupt and inadept oligarchy. They need to deal with their problems there, instead of coming here to create even more problems for the average American.

damn imgants I ahte them i wul;d gotten a job last week but hup sum fucking immigant from china or africa or one of those fucked up plases gt it instedand i got real issed offf. wat we shuld do here in vanuatu is put sea mines off the cost of luganville and portvila becuase they keep coming in. fuckers.

I hope u americans cn come over her and kill all the immigants

Originally Posted by Wesker

The school is in Houston Texas, USA..it is supported by taxes paid by citizens of the USA. It is not in Mexico. Mexico pays no money to support the school. The school is not an establishment of the Mexican government. Mexico does nothing for this school, provides nothing for the support of this school and owns none of the property of the school. All of the students in the school are not Mexican citizens. There is no reason to fly the flag of a soveriegn foriegn nation over any government building in the USA.

So I get that they haven't a right to display the flag, that there is no need to do so. But what harm is done in doing so?

Originally Posted by PUG1911

So I get that they haven't a right to display the flag, that there is no need to do so. But what harm is done in doing so?

In my opinion, it stirs Mexican nationalism and incites and anti-American attitude. My opinion is backed up by the signs of many protestors indicating their opinion that the southwest United states actually belongs to Mexico.

Wesker, a number of politicians have brought up your point (about the flags) and have even said that they started as sympathetic, but after seeing what seems to be an anti-American sentiment and only unity in the "mother" country, they now back the proposal.

What worries me about this is that most of the protestors do not understand what the issue is about. I teach at a school on the Mexico/US border. Many of the students are mad because other people tell them to be mad, but they have not actually read what the bills are about. They say "oh they want to kick the Mexicans out" and I have to ask them,"Is t he bill only about Mexicans?"
"No..."
"Is the bill about people who were born in the US?"
"No..."

We have really long conversations of teeth pulling until they realize that it is really not about what they think it is about!

On a somewhat unrelated note: I can understand that it is a pain to actually obtain United States citizenship. Not as hard as some other first world nations (even as a well educated adult, I still wouldn't have enough points right now to become Canadian for example), but the pages of documents that you have to fill out, provide, understand and so forth can be overwhelming. I wonder that if our process made more sense and were refined, we might find more people willing to use the legal routes...

Originally Posted by Watts

That's the problem. Americans will do any job for a decent and fair wage. Illegals reduce our labor wages by increasing the labor pool, and it fundamentally changes the equation. Hence, most Americans are against illegal immigration.

For instance, I've seen figures that's stated there's about eight million unemployed Americans right now. I've also seen figures that state there's up to fifteen million illegals in our country. So if all the illegals were removed from this country it'd be easy to assume that.

a) We'd have no unemployed Americans.
b) Since demand for workers is so high, wages/benefits will also be high. In fact I bet every sixteen year old could get a decent paying job. (By decent I mean above the current minimum wage)

Bottom line, Mexico's problems are the result of their corrupt and inadept oligarchy. They need to deal with their problems there, instead of coming here to create even more problems for the average American.

Not necessarily the actual case. Given that unemployement rates will probably go down a bundle, the outsourcing phenomenon has taken tremendous stride recently. Companies might not employ illegal immigrants here but rather pay for cheap labor elsewhere. This act might encourage US companies not to employ locally since wage rates are higher but outsource instead.

But is it better to have local jobs taken by illegals instead of outsourced? According to opinions I've read, illegals not only don't help the economy, but actively harm it.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

The entire argument of the pro-illegal immigration side boils down to that because these people are poor, not white, and do low-wage jobs that the law doesn't apply to them. Anyone who suggests otherwise is portrayed at the very least as a racist.

Everytime I read a newspaper paper article or watch a TV program on the subject, the pro-illegal immigration side never wants to acknowledge the fact that these people are breaking the law. What it all suggests to me is that they only want one thing - a completely open border with no restrictions on anyone who crosses in any way, shape, or form.

Never before have I seen such blatant disregard of the laws of this nation by its own citizens who sit here and defend criminals.

But hey, that's the left for you.

Hey, that's the right for you. Anything a rightard doesn't like must be a big conspiracy on the part of all liberals.

I do agree with you on the topic, though.

I live in Quebec, where a college (CÉGEP) education is basically free (my tuition fees were $150 per semester). Free to citizens, anyway. If you're from another country, or even - I think - from another province, you have to pay more.

Well suffice it to say that there are a lot of immigrant assholes around here who aren't happy enough paying a mere $800 or so per semester. They want it even cheaper like the rest of us whose families BUILT this @#$%ing country. They have absolutely no gratitude for living somewhere where they can get an education, let alone getting it so flipping cheap.

So when you talk about these walking shitstains with no regard for the law, that you Americans are having trouble with... well it's a no-brainer.

Double Post:
By the way, I think it's funny how minutemen have been monitoring the B.C.-U.S.A. border recently. What, did they expect to catch a few Chinese or something? Do some of you guys honestly think that any Canadian would need or want to cross into the U.S.A. illegally? That's a fine joke if I've ever heard one!

Originally Posted by PUG1911

But is it better to have local jobs taken by illegals instead of outsourced? According to opinions I've read, illegals not only don't help the economy, but actively harm it.

I've recently heazrd in NPR that in some industries, such as that of masons, illegals make up more than 40% of the work force.

They also said that these are well-paying industries - 15-20 dollars an hour - and that the home-building market, which is responsible for 15%-18% of our GDP.

Originally Posted by ArrowHead

Double Post:
By the way, I think it's funny how minutemen have been monitoring the B.C.-U.S.A. border recently. What, did they expect to catch a few Chinese or something? Do some of you guys honestly think that any Canadian would need or want to cross into the U.S.A. illegally? That's a fine joke if I've ever heard one!

Actually there was a huge ring of illegal Koreans being forced to have sex to pay there way here to the United States a few years ago. Want to know how they came here? Though the American - Canadian boarder because Canada doesn't require people from Korea to have a passport and the boarder between our countries are very lax.

Originally Posted by gukarma

I've recently heazrd in NPR that in some industries, such as that of masons, illegals make up more than 40% of the work force.

They also said that these are well-paying industries - 15-20 dollars an hour - and that the home-building market, which is responsible for 15%-18% of our GDP.

Waitaminute, what happened to the 'jobs so bad that real citizens wouldn't do them' argument? That's a decent job, so there goes that argument. Thanks.

Just because one example doesn't hold it doesn't mean the whole argument is wrong.

What the hell.

That's like saying:

A: All medical doctors perform operations.
B: AHA! Psychiatrists don't! Therefore all doctors do not perform operations.

And where did I say Americans would not do them? You need training for these jobs, I am assuming the employers would rather go with illegals who know how to do their work rather than training an american from scratch.

It's the nature of capitalism.

Originally Posted by gukarma

Just because one example doesn't hold it doesn't mean the whole argument is wrong.

What the hell.

That's like saying:

A: All medical doctors perform operations.
B: AHA! Psychiatrists don't! Therefore all doctors do not perform operations.

And where did I say Americans would not do them? You need training for these jobs, I am assuming the employers would rather go with illegals who know how to do their work rather than training an american from scratch.

It's the nature of capitalism.

Which is exactly my point. The argument has been made (I never said you made it), that illegals are 'needed', and can be supported because the jobs they do are those that wouldn't be filled by citizens. I always assumed this was hogwash, and that it was just an excuse to undercut society's wages.

And you've provided the best example I've heard as to it being a bullshit excuse to undercut society's wages.

And it does discredit the argument in it's entirety because it goes to show that employers are hiring illegals instead of citizens in order to cheap out. And the justification that citizens 'will not' do the job are only true because the jobs have been targeted by the employers at those which will do it illegally.

It is indeed the nature of capitalism, but that doesn't mean that it's right. The minimum wages, etc. are in place for a reason, and this is just a way to get around those laws.

Quote:

Posted by gukarma
I've recently heazrd in NPR that in some industries, such as that of masons, illegals make up more than 40% of the work force.

They also said that these are well-paying industries - 15-20 dollars an hour - and that the home-building market, which is responsible for 15%-18% of our GDP.

The people who are on the official payroll make 15-20 dollars an hour, sure. But you honestly think the Mexicans are seeing those kinds of wages? When the going rate is $15/hour, and you're only paying your undocumented workers 5, that's a substantial chunk of change going back into your own pocket, and you'd better believe those contractors are doing so.

To tell you the truth, I have illegal immigrant friends who do make $12 as painters. Not that far of a stretch.

Quote:

Which is exactly my point. The argument has been made (I never said you made it), that illegals are 'needed', and can be supported because the jobs they do are those that wouldn't be filled by citizens. I always assumed this was hogwash, and that it was just an excuse to undercut society's wages.

And you've provided the best example I've heard as to it being a bullshit excuse to undercut society's wages.

And it does discredit the argument in it's entirety because it goes to show that employers are hiring illegals instead of citizens in order to cheap out. And the justification that citizens 'will not' do the job are only true because the jobs have been targeted by the employers at those which will do it illegally.

It is indeed the nature of capitalism, but that doesn't mean that it's right. The minimum wages, etc. are in place for a reason, and this is just a way to get around those laws.

I have no fucking idea what point you are making, dude.

Most Americans will not clean shit for $6. Illegals will. Therefore illegals profit.

Capitalism makes it work. okthxbye.

It's not inherently bad, it's the nature of the beast.

Quote:

Most Americans will not clean shit for $6. Illegals will. Therefore illegals profit.

Seeing as how myself, and everyone else working my job with me, was cleaning shit for $6.75, Americans will in fact do it.