lincoln, a great man?

Because he was able to save the union, Lincoln is considered by many as one the best presidents ever. He is also seen as a humane person for his freeing the slaves...

But after reading SIX BIG LIES ABOUT ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE SLAVES AND THE WAR, I have my doubts.

His being a humane person can be dispelled quickly. His main goal was to keep the union at all cost. One of turtledove's book (where the South wins the civil war) showed it clearly.

Is Lincoln among the greatest or the worst presidents?

Great people aren't always good people, in fact that's mostly been the case historically.

Lincoln is one of our greatest presidents but he wasn't exactly a saint. That still doesn't mean he wasn't pretty awesome compared to his contemporaries and met a challenge that would cause most to burn out.

I really don't know why anyone would expect Lincoln to be a saint. You don't reach the office of the presidency by compromising and being nice to everyone. The whole "omg lincoln was a human being with faults" meme is just the product of an over-exaggerated hostile reaction to modern Republicans, which have about as much in common with the party of Lincoln's day as a poodle has in common with a fire axe. To call Lincoln the "worst president ever" betrays an absurd ignorance of the dire straits both nations would have rapidly found themselves in had the secession been permanent.

Please, don't use Harry Turtledove as a meaningful reference work. It makes me to cry.

Dudes, the Confederacy totally would've abolished slavery because Robert E. Lee hated it. Seriously.

My high school US history teacher referenced Turtledove on more than one occasion. Such is the quality of our public education system.

That website linked above makes Liberterians look bad. I mean - can you really take that crap about Lincoln seriously if its the same "webzine" that runs "The film WALL-E blatantly conveys environmentalist, anti-capitalist, anti-technological propaganda. But I will concentrate on a much more egregious error made by its creators—an error made in ignorance of basic economics and of commonsense insights regarding the nature of human behaviors."

To quote a great show before our time - "Veeeeeery in-ter-es-tink - but STOOPID"

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Please, don't use Harry Turtledove as a meaningful reference work. It makes me to cry.

I'M not from the US, so my history books barely talk about your ivil War.

I don't imply he's a scholarly source - although the knows about history - but he did show lincoln's motive.

A lot of libertarians like to rag on Lincoln because they think it makes them seem interesting, but more often than not you get the honest-to-God Confederate apologists like Von Mises Institute contributors.

Originally Posted by Janus X

I'M not from the US, so my history books barely talk about your ivil War.

I don't imply he's a scholarly source - although the knows about history - but he did show lincoln's motive.

So wait.

You admit to knowing nothing about our Civil War - yet you think he knows something about history? What do you base your opinion on? You have no credible sources and nothing in which to bounce off this guy's rambling. So its safe to say you're simply ignorant and this guy has something shiny and angry to sell you on the cheap.

The fact that he can say something you don't know does not make him intelligent. I can tell you tons of things about the American Civil War - my father is obsessed with that time period - but telling you such things doesn't mean I'm a scholar on the subject. I would suggest that I'd be a much bigger shoo-in for the title of scholar than this guy ever will be, and that should say a lot.

Long and short - this guy is an idiot and you're a bigger one for listening to him. And you can take that to the bank, buckko.

One thing stood out that summed up the article, OPINION. While it is true Lincoln did not care about freeing slaves and ever offered the southern states the right to keep slaves if they joined the union. I like the Jab at the republican party as if we have the same type of people in that party today.


As a way to conscript more soldiers Lincoln created whole regiments of black only battle groups. They were segregated by law Just as the Irish battle groups were. Lincoln used this to his advantage and while I agree he did not care to end slavery, doing so helped him win the war. Every great person has their faults and those faults can be found just about any where be they true or false. The guy who wrote this seems to want to bash Republicans in general when he sites their tax and spend and warmongering ways. What he fails to mention is democrat presidents who brought us into many wars or the shady history of the democrat part with regards to race relations.

The Democratic Party’s Legacy of Racism by Mackubin T. Owens See how easy that is, we can provide a link to an article written by someone who wants to trash democrats.

Democrats were the racist party, though. The Dixiecrat schism occurred because Southern whites felt the party was getting away from them.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Democrats were the racist party, though.

The irony was lost on every American that the democrats backed a *black* nominee.

The irony is Under a republican Africa has recieved more AIDS help from the US than under any other president. Also black home ownership is up to levels never seen before under a republican president.

US Census Press Releases

Originally Posted by Tiqulone

The irony is Under a republican Africa has recieved more AIDS help from the US than under any other president. Also black home ownership is up to levels never seen before under a republican president.

You... obviously don't understand the word "irony" if you're following our posts.

Do you have a reference for your AIDS assistance claim? Even if true, it doesn't prove much. A condom costs a quarter, an "abstinence education" costs significantly more but that doesn't make it more effective.

Also, bragging about "home ownership" in the middle of a loan crisis is a little disingenuous. How many of these people will actually get to keep their homes?

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Do you have a reference for your AIDS assistance claim? Even if true, it doesn't prove much. A condom costs a quarter, an "abstinence education" costs significantly more but that doesn't make it more effective.

Also, bragging about "home ownership" in the middle of a loan crisis is a little disingenuous. How many of these people will actually get to keep their homes?

I never said i was bragging, you are reading too far into the point I tried to make. Also correct about the home crisis , regardless black home ownership has increased.


There is several links that show US aid to Africa for aids victims,research and other needs.
Digg - Bush Has Quietly Tripled Aid to Africa
There is also counter claims by groups saying that Bush has not done a thing to help. Condoms don't do much for the person if they are already infected and not educated enough to know how condoms can help.

So hey, I'm wondering what George Bush not actually doing much to help black people has to do with this thread.

Originally Posted by Tiqulone

There is also counter claims by groups saying that Bush has not done a thing to help.

As opposed to all the aide we've given them in the past - which has culminated to them needing more of it, and where upon we stop assissting. Then its easy for them to piss and moan and say LOOK WHAT HAPPENS - but they're just looking for help instead of helping themselves.

Originally Posted by Tiqulone

Condoms don't do much for the person if they are already infected and not educated enough to know how condoms can help.

Originally Posted by LeHah

Long and short - this guy is an idiot and you're a bigger one for listening to him. And you can take that to the bank, buckko.

Have you seen any of his other threads?

Originally Posted by Pang

Also, bragging about "home ownership" in the middle of a loan crisis is a little disingenuous. How many of these people will actually get to keep their homes?

Oprah Winfrey = only in America... and it's all Honest Abe's fault.