I can't be alone in this.

I challenge anyone to convince me that confidence is worse than shyness or lack of confidence. It's certainly more productive to be confident, even if confidence truly is just "thinly veiled arrogance," it's generally a more appealing characteristic than being the opposite.

Also, I disagree with your statement about confident people being less intelligent than cowerers. In fact, I'd say it's more likely that the opposite is true.

Intelligence does no good if you don't give the gears any time to turn before your gaping maw spews forth 'tardedness.

Even the most intelligent people spew tardedness from time to time. Better to spew a little tardedness occasionally than to sit there like a bump on a log and not say anything.

On the tail of what Minion said, I prefer a girl who is independent-minded, who has opinions of her own, and is not adverse to the idea of sharing those opinions when they become relevant.

But I also appreciate someone who does not feel the need to force her opinions on everyone else, and to hell with the consequences, because goddamn it, they're her opinions and they're valid too. I'd rather have someone I can talk to, someone who will know when to listen back. I think given the context of this thread, I would definitely prefer someone who was higher on the passive scale than someone who was more...active.

And personally, I think I'd rather be a white knight than a crusader.

Another thing to note is that a lot of people who are considered not confident simply have communication problems. Maybe they're foreigners, maybe they have a speech impediment. That doesn't neccesarily mean they're cowards.

In fact, I'd imagine communication issues are the reason behind most people's lack of apparent confidence.

Is this a reincarnation of the EMO thread or what?

Hmm, you might be onto something Musharraf.

We had an EMO thread?

Yes, it was an awesome thread. We had discussions on three, no four different levels. I believe we discussed about emos, niggers, jews and Seris' underwear.

Oh right. With the kid from the concert hall who was defending all emo kiddies as being brilliant artists?

Originally Posted by Minion

Oh right. With the kid from the concert hall who was defending all emo kiddies as being brilliant artists?

I don't have a problem with passive people. But the only way I can think of to cope, or deal, with such people is to basically be proactive about it. You want something? Go get it.

In my lifetime so far, I have dealt with my share of passive individuals. They don't care what goes on, they don't care if their toasted bagel came out deformed and that they've just spreaded cream cheese with a little jam, accidentially mixed into the cream. They don't care if the group decides to go eat at McDonalds that's 3 blocks away. when they can instead go to Burger King that's 1 building away.

Although, after typing that, one way you could possibly get a passive individual to unwind is to condition them. If you like to go and eat at Subway for some 6-inch sandwich, keep going there everyday. I suspect the passive individual who tags along may eventually break. His/her wants and desires come out and show their true colors. "Not today, I wanna go and eat at Wendy's."

Instead of going to the usual table hang-out place, that's nearby, drag them to a seating area that's further away. Something of the like that'll potentially get them to snap back into reality.

So, someone like Lurker may still hate them now, or forever, but if you like someone and really want them to change, give them the chance to do it. Set them up.

I'm just as interested in trying out my theory of breaking passive people. So, I shall experiment with some people I know at college. I'll clue in results at the end of the week. (Assuming it won't take so long to break them.) I'm always interested in learning how certain people work. What makes them tick, what can motivate them better than money. Stuff like that. Call it a psychological interest, or some sick obsession to stalk people, but the day you do something unfavorable unknowingly, by another individual, is the day you get "owned." (For whatever n-th time.)

Originally Posted by Shinimegami

Shy people/ quite people piss me off - that goes under passive category..doesn't it?

Especially at cadets b/c the F/sgt always spends half an hour trying to get them to yell. Here's the deal: at cadets - you yell. You yell out everything: when you're talking, when you're calling out time in drill. But some people just don't and we get held up for half an hour standing at attention b/c some incompetent little twit can't yell "Permission to fall in F/Sgt" properly...

At school its pretty bad too - everytime it comes to presentation time they make such a big deal out of it and the teacher gives them excuses to not present or to do a shitty job because they're 'naturally shy'.
Luckily - high school teachers don't give a shit about people's personality and I'm not so bothered anymore...

Nowaday I just laugh them when they screw up - I mean come on - your'e in Grade 11 get over yourself and get off your ass...
Doing a fucking presentation won't kill you...
..or will it?

That has nothing to do with passive-aggressive people. You just sound like an asshole who has no respect for shy or self-conscious people. Maybe you should try to get to know these kinds of people before you go tooting your all-knowing, mind-reading anus of yours.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland

Also, I disagree with your statement about confident people being less intelligent than cowerers. In fact, I'd say it's more likely that the opposite is true.

Well, we really shouldn't be putting a blanket statement like that for these types of people. Some people are so unconfident in themselves that they push themselves further than a confident person might ... and others might just give up. It all really just depends on the person.

Also, no matter how confident you are, you should constantly question yourself and make yourself better. Modesty is just as important, if not moreso, than confidence, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Minion

Well, often times "others" fail to realize how complex a situation is. It could be that confident people are just not very bright on average.

Oh wow. Oh, wow.

Keep thinking that way, it probably helps your already-tiny self-esteem.

Answering your question, yes, there is a definite difference between passive and cautious. When you let people walk over you and you smolder in resentment, well, that's passive. Also if you're so uncomfortable with people you should not be uncomfortable around (family, friends, etc) that you always defer to their choices, that is also passive, not cautious.

to the person who complained: I'm well aware this color doesn't look good against navy that's why I picked it.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Mojougwe

So, someone like Lurker may still hate them now, or forever, but if you like someone and really want them to change, give them the chance to do it. Set them up.

It's not that I hate them so much as I have no patience for them. My father is the very definition of passive-agressive, although that's beyond the scope of this conversation, and my boyfriend is hella passive. I've tried to get him to open up more and the sum of my efforts on him is that I'm exhausted with it. "How're you?" "How're you?" "How're you?" conversations are cute the first hundred times you have them, but now just tell me what the hell happened during your day nigger.

ANyway, I predict your experiment will fail.

Also, for the record anyway, I'm not surprised Minion is a bit touchy on the subject. He is so passive-agressive it rots my teeth (somehow).

I don't like passive people. They keep quiet, you never know what they are thinking or what they want, and they bitch after you've tried something. Apathy and cowardice is fucking disgusting. And a lurker, please tell me you are a woman .

What, you didn't know I was gay? How fucking thick do I have to lay it?

I may not be understanding the definition of "passive" you guys are throwing around, but say you're with a group of friends wanting to grab some food. I'd much rather be the guy saying "I'm cool with whatever" than "I want McDonald's, bitches!"

If you're indifferent on an issue, shouldn't it be seen as a courtesy that you'd rather place other people's wants ahead of your own?

NES, passive is when you say that McDonald's is fine with you even though you'd much rather order a pizza. Then you don't say anything about it to anyone and just sit there not being happy.

I used to be a lot more passive than I am now. It's mostly because I've been dealing with a lot of people that only catch on to things if you say it directly to them (I'm the same way, so it's kinda assy of me to complain about it). I've also wound up being the decision maker for lots of the projects/labs/jobs I've had in the past few years, and it makes me realize how important it is to be able to make a decision and stick to it.

And passive-aggressive people usually become passive after you tell them to either say something or shut the fuck up a few times. EIther that, or you get really lucky and they finally start voicing their opinion.

Passive people bug me so much. Especially if you're trying to make plans or something. It's ok if we hang out sometimes but when everytime I'm making plans and they just go along, it bothers me. Don't you have a spine? An opnion? Why didn't you tell me you didn't like steak and we went to a steakhouse, god dammit. I start to feel guilty, like I'm bulldozing over that person when I'm trying not to.

I'm pretty passive aggressive in the sense that I don't like confrontation but when people pose a risk to me, I do things. Like move their staplers and never tell them. Of course when provoked enough, I'll slap a bitch but otherwise I like avoiding fighting.

Originally Posted by NES Oldskooler

I may not be understanding the definition of "passive" you guys are throwing around, but say you're with a group of friends wanting to grab some food. I'd much rather be the guy saying "I'm cool with whatever" than "I want McDonald's, bitches!"

The problem is is that you need the McDonalds bitches guy to get the ball rolling, otherwise you just shrug at each other all night. Look, I'm not talking about compromise or anything like that, that's necessary and useful and required. Let me take an example of a friend my sister has. My sister will offer and basically beg the friend to order a meal at such-and-such mall eatery, and the friend will be like "no, that's okay, the portions there are big enough that we can both eat from one." or "all I want is a side anyway." and then the friend will eat a lot from my sister's plate. Not that my sister doesn't like sharing*, but that the friend refuses to assert herself even after my sister basically begs her to.

Also the friend apparently makes snide faces and comments behind the backs of people the friend does not like. I mean, that's immature. They're both 16 but I recently re-discovered how much I dislike that so I thought I'd share.

* in this particular instance my sister is queer for such-and-such mall eatery, so she does mind sharing half her meal. But in general, I mean.