Random question on God

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Okay, you know, if I were religious, I'd totally flip my lid over this one.

I don't get this at all. "I believe in my faith in order to cover my bases." Yea, I'm sure thats would go over well at the pearly gates.

"Do you accept Jesus as your savior?"
"Yea, so long as I don't burn in hell for all eternity - sure, why not!"

That seems so....opposite to the point.

I mean, I can see where you're coming from, though? You're TERRIFIED of this godawful place called "hell." You've been scared shitless into believing in some stupid crap just because you want to play on the safe side.

Doesn't that OFF THE BAT kind of make you suspicious about your god? He resorts to SCARE TACTICS to get you to worship him?

Meh. I'm human. Obviously I'm gonna have some doubts at times. God is a pretty flimsy concept to believe it. Obviously I'm not a very devout christian if that wasn't already obvious. But I enjoy the religion so I figure, why not. Really I'm kinda just talking out of my ass now. Lacking in sleep. So enough replies for me tonite.

Originally Posted by Smelnick

Meh. I'm human. Obviously I'm gonna have some doubts at times. God is a pretty flimsy concept to believe it.

So you just blindly believe in because it's better than the alternative? I mean, you admit it's a flimsy concept! But yet, you still believe in it because you don't like the idea that maybe, someday, upon arriving at the transcendental juncture of the afterlife, you may get sent to this really fun place called hell.

You admit it's flimsy. But yet you're still making decisions based on the most hilarious concept ever: hell.

Do you see how this is kind of silly? I mean, maybe you haven't really thought about how you regard things out there, as far as spirituality - which is cool, man. But how Christian are you really?

Quote:

Obviously I'm not a very devout christian if that wasn't already obvious. But I enjoy the religion so I figure, why not. Really I'm kinda just talking out of my ass now. Lacking in sleep. So enough replies for me tonite.

What, exactly, do you "enjoy" about the religion? The free communion wafers? The thought-provoking metaphor of drinking Christ's blood? Maybe the weekend retreats into a hell hole of Kumbaya choruses and repetitive preaching?

I mean, if you want an "enjoyable" religion, I am sure there's much more awesome things out there that celebrate the individual in lieu of trying to appease some dude in the sky who will throw you into the throngs of hell if you don't worship him properly.

Responses such as that convince me more and more what people claim to believe is quite a bit different than what people actually believe. They think they believe, they want to believe the metaphysical claims of the bible. But it's just not possible to really, really believe it. I think most of the religious are under the influence of Pascal. How can they not be when it seemingly appears to be such a profitable transaction. Providing they get the sprinkle of water and spend their Sunday afternoon in church an exception will be made when they pass on. Exactly as he said, why take the chance? Of course I don't believe this nonsense! But if I at least feign belief my mind/soul will survive my death. People will fall for that.

Except that's not how it works, slick. Belief, at least in the judeo-christian dogma, requires belief in one's heart. You can't do lip service. It doesn't count.

So the person making the rational decision of "I'll stay in case" has to make the rational decision of "Well, now I'm fucked anyway. Might as well screw before marriage." Also, over the course of my ethnographic research, I've met people who are devout believers. Quite a few of them, actually. So your hypothesis doesn't hold water. You're giving too much weight to the rational decision making process in what is inherently an irrational act. People don't often think this through. They're raised in it, they believe it. Period.

Those born in a family of faith do tend to believe in their "heart" and really believe they believe the nonsense of the bible. But what good is a belief if it does not correspond with reality? Consider what it means to believe a given proposition. A belief is clearly a linguistic representation concerning a state of the universe. If the brain has conquered anything it is the ability to differentiate a belief from a hope. I can hope I have won the lottery. This represents a possible state of the universe. However, it only becomes a possible representation once I have secured a ticket. But believing I have won the lottery is the only thing which opens the floodgate of emotions appropriate to actually having won the lottery. Yet what could be said of my mental faculties if I have not won the lottery but continue to believe I have? Simply believing I am a lottery winner does not change my financial situation unless it happens to be true. When we believe a given proposition as a truth statement, we are making our best effort to map our thoughts onto reality. This is why we have phrases such as ‘wishful thinking’ for when the validity of our beliefs do not connect with reality.

Either God is the perfect creator of the universe or He is not. If it is the case that it is the latter, then it would seem to place roughly 2 billion Christians in a very awkward situation indeed. In the fullness of time there really will be a winner to this debate since logic demands it. If it turns out there is a God who has a plan for me, then all I have is the simple task of revising my beliefs to gain new knowledge about the universe. If it ever becomes demonstratively shown however that there is no God, am I expected to see 2 billion Christians suddenly become atheists? This is unlikely. What then would it say about the mental faculties of those Christians who continue to believe something which is not true?

Notice that Christianity, with all of its fantastically false claims about the universe, actually goes much further. It says, you as an individual, have the ability to change reality through belief. In other words, if only you are willing to believe Jesus died on the cross you can change the destination of your soul once it separates from the body after death. Since sin is original to our species, something none of us are able to evade, our soul from the moment of conception is destined for Hell. But providing you surrender your self-respect and providing you praise and adore a celestial being that has only done his job in creating you, you are able to avoid a very unpleasant place you rightly belong and instead find yourself welcomed into Heaven.

Now you understand what I mean when I say it is just not possible to believe this. And anyone who claims to is simply not being intellectually honest.

I think you're still having a hard time separating logic and reason from what faith is.

Also, I'm not sure how comparing believing in an afterlife is at all comparable to believing one's won the lottery as one can affect you in the here and now and the other will only be once it doesn't really matter anyway.

If a given proposition is true, it is true by virtue, not because we believe it. If this is merely a debate concerning the reliability of faith and reason then reason wins by default. We would have not got this far in the pages of history without it. If on the other hand you mean to tell me that the concept of the afterlife rests solely inside the realm of faith which reason can never hope to explain, then no I won't have that. Either there is life beyond the grave or there isn't. If there is, then that is a matter of truth not a matter of faith. If you also mean to tell me that among all things we must have faith in God to be granted access to this divine afterlife, then no I won't have that either. You have a great deal of work ahead if you want to convince me that Heaven and the afterlife only reveals its path to those who have jetisoned logic and reason and replaced skepticism with blind faith.

The human brain is no longer confined to shadows in the cave. We need to have more respect for ourselves than this. I hope I am making myself clear.

I'm just having a hard time understanding how you can say that necessitating something outside our universe has to be proven in order to exist.

I mean, if we're going that route, then the entirety of the universe stops existing whenever I blink.

Well, it's easy to think of such a thing if you're a dystheist (where God is evil).


Personally, it is my belief that 9/11 was evil and God-Allowed, thus meaning He, for all practical purposes, did something evil.

Originally Posted by agreatguy6

Well, it's easy to think of such a thing if you're a dystheist (where God is evil).

Why isn't this listed in the dictionary.

Quote:

Personally, it is my belief that 9/11 was evil and God-Allowed, thus meaning He, for all practical purposes, did something evil.

O, WOW. You're a jem.

"9/11 was awful, and God allowed it. Therefore, God must be part EVIL!"

What's wrong with you. Really. Have you thought about this at all? 9/11 is the first thing to spring to mind?

And, I mean, how about every second someone suffers in life? Or every tragedy that occurs - does that all mean god could be part evil, too? Because we don't live in utopia?

Sometimes, I wonder how people make these huge leaps for their faith. Instead of accepting something that is much more probable (ie: god is a figment of your imagination and insecurities), you decide that maybe god isn't as perfect as you thought he was! DESPITE what the Bible has to say about it!

I wonder, is Lucifer perhaps Mother Teresa? 'Cause the duality you're implying with god here must apply equally to the devil, I imagine.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

I mean, if we're going that route, then the entirety of the universe stops existing whenever I blink.

You only have the sense of sight?

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

You only have the sense of sight?

When I sleep the world stops existing.

(Or perhaps when I blink light ceases to exist.)

God is too much work. I've yet to encounter a reason to believe in his existence or his supposed words.

Doesn't anyone else feel this way?

I just can't be bothered to give a flying fuck. If a fella wants me to devote my precious 70 years of existence to his cause, he'd better be the one seeking me the fuck out in the desert and praying to me.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

When I sleep the world stops existing.

(Or perhaps when I blink light ceases to exist.)

I always wondered why the lights wink out every minute or two.

Why would anyone even try to argue with solipsism? You can't very well refute it.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Why isn't this listed in the dictionary.

It's on Wikipedia, I know that:

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism

And I highly doubt they would lie about something like that, since they're mostly a bunch of heathens.
Plus the dictionary was written by Christian men. Such an entry would be sacrilige. why not now? no one uses it much anymore.

Yes, that's good reasoning. Sure is. Maybe even great reasoning.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

When I sleep the world stops existing.

(Or perhaps when I blink light ceases to exist.)

But you CAN hear, therefore certifying that there is something outside, or you should guide yourself to a psych ward, lol.

But yes, solipsis is VERY hard to argue with, since it's pretty much a conversation ender.

And, no. When you sleep, the world doesn't start existing, you do. Since your mind is at rest, and sleep is the first death (according to shakespeare), you have ceased to exist for the time being.

Additional Spam:

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

O, WOW. You're a jem.

"9/11 was awful, and God allowed it. Therefore, God must be part EVIL!"

What's wrong with you. Really. Have you thought about this at all? 9/11 is the first thing to spring to mind?

And, I mean, how about every second someone suffers in life? Or every tragedy that occurs - does that all mean god could be part evil, too? Because we don't live in utopia?

Sometimes, I wonder how people make these huge leaps for their faith. Instead of accepting something that is much more probable (ie: god is a figment of your imagination and insecurities), you decide that maybe god isn't as perfect as you thought he was! DESPITE what the Bible has to say about it!

I wonder, is Lucifer perhaps Mother Teresa? 'Cause the duality you're implying with god here must apply equally to the devil, I imagine.

Touche.
Well, that is assuming you believe there IS a god.
Good for you, you're letting me skip a step! Since you bring up duality, such a questioning could only result in "There is no God."
You see what NOT going the simple route does? It brings to light SO many things!

There are too many circumstances in which all logic points to the nonexistence of god, so as far as percentages go, there isn't one.

Yet still some common proles think that they might have hope of lasting forever, so they cling to the hope that they will, and create the ultimate sadist for their inner masochist so they'll feel rightly punished for their foolishness. HAHA, Christians make me laugh.

Well, getting back to the original topic....


Here's the thing. Presuppose that God exists. To me this means that he is omnipotent... otherwise he'd be 'a' god and not God... and therefore created the notions of good and evil. Good and evil being define by him then....

.... yes, he does wrong in the sense that he breaks the rules he sets for us. If he never meant for those rules to apply to him though, the he isn't breaking them, and they aren't evil.