Atheist parents!

Originally Posted by LordsSword

"good person" based on whose definition?

Here's something that'll blow your miniscule mind...

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Wait, what? How in the perfect blue hell does it not matter whose definition of "good person" you're talking about? Well, let me tell you a little story.

Betsy was raised by her mother, Joan. Before Betsy was born, Joan left her husband, Dick, because he was a dick. He was a devout Christian, followed the Bible's word to a T, and because of the way his particular religion interpreted the Bible, he felt a woman should be subservient to him. Joan eventually got tired of this treatment, especially after being eight months pregnant and having to serve Dick's every whim because he was too fat and lazy and tired to do anything but watch television once he got home from doing HIS duty which is, he believes, to be the "provider and protector" of his family. Guess that doesn't include protecting his wife's self-esteem. MOVING ON.
Joan was a complete atheist. She didn't believe in God at all. Didn't think God, or the afterlife, or heaven or hell existed. As such, she felt that everything she did in life, and however she affected people, needed to be as positively influencing as possible, so that her brief existence would have some meaning. On every moral issue she taught Betsy this way, and Betsy grew up with a moral code that practically mirrored the one that the Bible would teach her. Everywhere she went, people asked if she was a Christian, but she smiled, shrugged and replied "I don't subscribe to any religion." People then asked why she was such a goody-two-shoes and she smiled, shrugged and replied "Because it's easy to tell what's right and what's wrong."
Eventually, Dick died, and Joan became a lesbian. Betsy married a man who shared her moral code, but he got run over by a dump truck a year later. She struggled through the rest of her life, working for various charities, and eventually created the cures for AIDS and cancer. Before she died, she started her own religion, a cross between Rastafarian and Amish - but really it was just a religion where you sit around and smoke so much pot you can't afford to pay your electric bill. She passed away peacefully at the age of 72, after drinking enough wine to put Jesus to shame and crashing her car into a lake.

To sum up:

Knowledge of good and evil is given to all men. By their fruits ye shall know them, right? GOOD IS GOOD. Period. You can say that there is no good without God, and that's fine. But saying that an atheist can't do good because they don't involve God is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of. Plenty of good things have been done without speaking God's name, and plenty of bad things have been done WHILE speaking it.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I asked the question "good based on whose definition?" for a reason.
Sure they can be "good" but based on what system.
Society, history & experience are very fluid concepts depending on where you are and when you are in the world.
Remember I go by a 2000 yr. old book that was considered "good" for society at one time. Now its heavily disputed.

I thought you were banned. Shame.

Good is doing whatever makes you happy and doesn't interfere with the happiness of other people. Period. If you need a more detailed description, I recommend Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. While Aristotle's views aren't quite in line with my own, they're another good possibility.

Quote:

The atheist cant because "rules" don't really exist. They have guidelines but no real rules on morality to be held accountable to.

Absolutely and positively wrong. Just because religious people shout it all around doesn't make it true. You don't need religion to have morality.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Unlike you, I don't take my good/bad cues from one book.

I take cues from society and from how people would like to be treated. From history, from mistakes, from experience.

Not to pat myself on the back or anything here, but I figure I do a hell of a lot for people out of a hope for humanity. I don't need a book of rules to tell me to be kind to those around me - I figure it's my job as a fucking human being.


Which doesn't require a book. I dunno. Maybe I'm just more observant than you are.


You don't know jack shit about atheists - why are you making any conclusions about them? They are all very different.

We are our own guide.

I don't say this often, but I actually agree with Sassafrass here. We are essentially our own guides, whether we take our cues from personal experience, hearsay, history, literature, or in fact religion. We are the ones who choose the rules we abide by, and what we think is right and wrong.

Atheists may differ in their opinions on this, just as Christians or Muslims differ in the rules and values they pick up on, and the ones they choose to ignore.

From a sociobiological point of view, altruistic behaviour usually serves inclusive fitness (the survival of our genes), or the principle of reciprocity ("if I treat you well, I hope you will do the same thing for me"). To me personally, the reason to try to be "good" is simply because I think it's "my job" as a human being as well. Maybe that is the case because it's the way my parents raised me, maybe it's my biology, maybe it comes from experience, maybe it's just me. But I do know that there is some sense of right and wrong there, and I don't need a divine authority to hand it to me.

In the simplest way, "good" is basically what makes me happy; and interfering with the happiness of other people makes me unhappy (most of the time - I make mistakes, of course, and I have bad days, like everyone). What makes me happy is good for me, and often, doing something good for others gives me a feeling of satisfaction. So I guess you could say I do good things out of selfishness, for my own gratification - then again, don't Christians get heaven for it?

Originally Posted by Ayos

Plenty of good things have been done without speaking God's name, and plenty of bad things have been done WHILE speaking it.

Now this is a fact.

I'm jumping in this thread because I wanted to see where the discussion was, and BAM! There's LordsSword running his mouth off again, and making Christians look like dumbasses.

LordsSword, check it out, you aren't connecting reality to your faith. You are assuming waaaay too much and it keeps coming back to bite you. According to the Bible, yes, everything an atheist does is wrong. But guess what, the same is true of everything that you do. Just because you are a devout Christian, doesn't make you right. All have sinned, and come short; even and especially you. Half of being a Christian is learning how to be humble and non-confrontational ESPECIALLY with non-believers. Jesus and Paul demonstrate this in spades. The only people they are contentious towards are other religious people who are spreading false teachings or defaming Christ's name by misrepresenting Him.

And, THAT is what you are doing, and that is why I'm calling you out. You are a disgrace to Christianity on these forums. You are constantly being condescending and preaching "from on high" down at everyone and expecting them to listen. All they will say is "fuck you!" And in many ways, I'm joining them even though I'm a devout believer myself, because you are the picturesque example of why so many people hate Christians today.

So STFU and GTFO.

Originally Posted by Arainach

Good is doing whatever makes you happy and doesn't interfere with the happiness of other people.

Ok, I suppose this works for kids. Simple, easy to remember.
Lets look at the reality though.

My critics are not making any attempt to make me happy are they? They are in fact with premeditation trying to make me unhappy.
Your statement is a mere platitude that is trampled on by you & evey new post aimed at me.

Recognise this? Some call it the golden rule:
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The atheist is challenged by their abandoning of what has worked for civilization since the beginning of time: the impression that moral guidelines come from beyond the opinions of men.

The opinion that good=everybody happy system is proven to be a double standard that kids see right through.

Originally Posted by TheReverend

According to the Bible, yes, everything an atheist does is wrong. But guess what, the same is true of everything that you do.

Look folks, here is the golden rule at work.

Because this member & I have a rule book as a basis for working out our disputes, we both have a means to have unity despite our differences.
Our unity is wrought through our common acknowledgment of an authority of how life should be lived that is higher than our own shifting opinions.

Furthermore we have a basis for solving our problem instead of ignoring that one exists or the conflict degenerating to 2 people just getting their feelings hurt.

TheReverend and I can even strengthen our faith and knowledge through a prescribed process.
Matthew 7:4
How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
Matthew 18:15
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

I never said an atheist is wrong, they are "challenged" with their own obstacles that keep them from the ideals that we all strive for.

Life can be Hell too, no parent wants that for their kids, whats your system?

LordsSword, not even God himself would listen to your bullshit.

Originally Posted by Divest

LordsSword, not even God himself would listen to your bullshit.

Only those who were taught through neglect have the desire to not listen.
I've have the role of a father and have had the pleasure of the experience for over 5 years. My stepson is an accomplished student and martial artist of 11 who started out as one of those diagnosed ADD kids. His temperament nearly got him tossed from his school.

Having been raised under the despotic whims of a parent who was an atheist before being shot in the face, I know how bad a person can go. I've seen things kids shouldn't be exposed to and survived to tell the tale, warn others and show that there is a better way.

I know my system works, my kids health and strength has earned the respect of his father who has thanked me himself for his sons success. You have your own ways of course, go ahead, experience and time will be the judge.

I firmly believe that LordsSword is actually the antichrist in disguise.

A very clever disguise at that.

Perhaps you are a good father, LordSword, nobody here is able to judge that, since we don't know you. It's the arrogance of saying that atheists are necessarily bad parents, which makes you unpopular here.

Originally Posted by Traveller87

Perhaps you are a good father, LordSword, nobody here is able to judge that, since we don't know you. It's the arrogance of saying that atheists are necessarily bad parents, which makes you unpopular here.

Apparently, he had a really shitty upbringing with an asshole father who happened to be atheist.

I wonder if he recognizes that his behavior is just him trying to get over his shitty parents.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Ok, I suppose this works for kids. Simple, easy to remember.
Lets look at the reality though.

My critics are not making any attempt to make me happy are they? They are in fact with premeditation trying to make me unhappy.
Your statement is a mere platitude that is trampled on by you & evey new post aimed at me.

Recognise this? Some call it the golden rule:
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The atheist is challenged by their abandoning of what has worked for civilization since the beginning of time: the impression that moral guidelines come from beyond the opinions of men.

Have you stopped to consider that it may not be working for everyone? That not everyone is happy going about with what they feel a delusion guiding their lives, everything they do?

I'm happy you've found Christ. I'm happy you were able to overcome what sounds to be a tough time of your life through his teachings, and the set of beliefs set around him. Honestly. I may not agree with what you believe, but that's entirely irrelevant. I respect what you believe, and am happy to see that you've found what makes you happy, content, whatever it is you may be looking for.

All I ask is that you show me the same respect.

But you're not worth respecting, Capo. You're a terrible person, a heathen, an atheist.

There are two things in the world that I can't stand. There are the people who mess up the there/their/they're words, And then there's the religious nutbars. Lordsword, I'm talking to you.

I really don't care if you subscribe to some book for your life. That's your choice. Just don't tell me that my choice is wrong, because we are all people, too. I hang out with religious people and we have quite the community. I see all this stuff, and being an atheist I shrug and go celebrate Christmas and Easter and I hang at church with my friends. Why? Because I respect the life choices that they have made, just like I support gay and lesbian types. You might say I'm less atheist than apathetic.

I could go around and tear down every sign of Jesus and God that I see. I could run into a church and yell, "You idiots are wasting your lives!" But I don't. I have respect for the people who are out there, and I understand my friends are happier with God in their lives.

What I have seen in this thread is a person who is the true reversal of what I know a Christian as: someone who doesn't love everybody. Why can't you accept the fact that other people find the world more acceptable without a big happy man in the sky?

You ask why we don't treat you the way we want to be treated. Well, now I ask you the same thing, and accept the fact perhaps your lens is a little tinted at the moment, and that there is nothing psychologically wrong with atheist people. I think perhaps in your case, it's the other way around.

Unless I am missing something, I am pretty sure Divest was being sarcastic...

I think quality people are quality people, regardless of spiritual beliefs.

Originally Posted by RainMan

Unless I am missing something, I am pretty sure Divest was being sarcastic...

I think quality people are quality people, regardless of spiritual beliefs.

1) Read the entire post much? That's kind of the point of my entire post.

2) Read the section where I referenced the fact that I was talking to Lordsword?

3) He's banned. 'Bout time.

1) If your entire post was clear to begin with, why did you feel the need to go back and edit the information in after I had replied? It wasn't clear but now it is. I am not getting on your case, I am just double-checking as I wasn't quite so sure.

2) Yes but you shouldn't have referenced Divests post as the focal point if you were purely referring to LordSword without mentioning you agreed with Divests post. It was confusing. I am just saying.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Originally Posted by Sceptre X

He's banned. 'Bout time.

Nah, unfortunately he's not. That's just the title Zeal gave him during his short stint as a mock-admin.

Originally Posted by RainMan

1) If your entire post was clear to begin with, why did you feel the need to go back and edit the information in after I had replie