Religion: What it means to you

Originally Posted by Hachifusa

You have the time to prattle off ridiculous statements about the Bible. Please find these sources and tell us, because that MIGHT actually help your position.

If you're preaching in the highways, here, you really aren't good at it.

If ALL of you people promise to cut out the name calling & harsh statements, I will gather my sources and present them.

If not I can only assume that what I provide will be a platform for more ridicule.

I am showing where I am on the landscape of myriad beliefs and a course to a defined concept of virtue. This is what my religion means to me and this is what a christian is supposed to do.

Can you or anyone else here do the same?

All I can see right now is a body of people that slam ideas but present no particular source of their own (with quotes or statements) as their guide for the concept of virtue. Its easy to walk around with a hatchet and destroy things but what do you build your life on?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

If ALL of you people promise to cut out the name calling & harsh statements, I will gather my sources and present them.

If not I can only assume that what I provide will be a platform for more ridicule.

I am showing where I am on the landscape of myriad beliefs and a course to a defined concept of virtue. This is what my religion means to me and this is what a christian is supposed to do.

Can you or anyone else here do the same?

All I can see right now is a body of people that slam ideas but present no particular source of their own (with quotes or statements) as their guide for the concept of virtue. Its easy to walk around with a hatchet and destroy things but what do you build your life on?

Secular humanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're welcome.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I am showing where I am on the landscape of myriad beliefs and a course to a defined concept of virtue. This is what my religion means to me and this is what a christian is supposed to do.

Good for you, you are showing where you stand on the pedestal of christianity, that's fine and dandy, that's wonderful news.

And about 50 years ago to when christianity began, you would probably be looked upon with admiration. But you see, in this day and age people see through all the bullshit, we've become smarter than the average "flock" and realized that there are too many contridictions in that little book of yours to have any merit on why we should build our life around it. I certainly don't wish to be a hypocrite, hence I don't follow the bible.

Quote:

All I can see right now is a body of people that slam ideas but present no particular source of their own (with quotes or statements) as their guide for the concept of virtue. Its easy to walk around with a hatchet and destroy things but what do you build your life on?

As I said before, in my last post, I'm pretty sure you have just quotted Sitting Bull.

I have just one, miniscule question for you...What right do WE have as people to tell people what to think, what 'moral' rules to follow? I'll admit, most things the bible teaches is to love, and not judge...to not hurt the fellow person...but...once again I'll be damned if only about 2% of people who follow that book actually live that kind of life.

The other 98%, well...

"You don't read the bible? Oh FUCK YOU...Go to hell ya blasphemous bastard"

This is the second time I've seen you take the stance that only christianity provides a moral basis for human action. Do you really think that without your religion, which is young compared to many, the world would fall into anarchy and cruelty?

This is why I say you're uneducated. And yes, do explain to me how the earliest civilizations all practiced this universal concept, and I will slap you with 100 academics who will tell you no universal exists, and that you're an amateur if you think it does. Not smart.

Originally Posted by Grail

And about 50 years ago to when christianity began, you would probably be looked upon with admiration.

At the risk of sounding like I'm siding entirely with LordSword (which I'm not), Christianity actually began roughly 2,000 years ago with the teachings of a man named Jesus. Whether or not Jesus was who He said He was is up to the individual to decide.

LordSword: Not everyone needs some kind of ultimate platform to build their lives on. Morality is not an absolute concept for everyone, it's not that hard to come to that sort of realization. People can be good without being Christian - even the Bible attests to this fact. I see this in people all the time. Athiests aren't stupid or evil, they just have a different belief system, and trying to say they can't be moral because they don't have some sort of higher guiding source to direct their lives is just plain stupid.

And assume for the sake of this paragraph what you said about spiritual concepts since the dawn of civilization is true. Why does the fact that people have believed something for hundreds, or even thousands of years, make it true? A common example is how people once believed the earth was flat. Just because people believed this did not make it true. I am not commenting on the ultimate truth of your statement - merely the flawed reasoning behind it. The "correctness" of concept or idea is not determined on how many people have believed in it for however long a time.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

Secular humanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're welcome.

Ok, now we are gettin somewhere. What does this mean to you? How has humanism proven to you to be superior in its definition of virtue?

Can anyone else lay down their hatchet for a moment and share their position?

Originally Posted by Grail

But you see, in this day and age people see through all the bullshit, we've become smarter than the average "flock" and realized that there are too many contridictions in that little book of yours to have any merit on why we should build our life around it. I certainly don't wish to be a hypocrite, hence I don't follow the bible.

The bible clearly defines what it means to be a Christian. If you see a person claiming to be a follower of Jesus and then acts like a hellion you can't blame the book. This is the stregnth of the book its a guide to set believers straight. The person acts the way they believe and if its ungodly behavior that person doesn't follow Jesus Christ.

Dont let a few bad people undergird prejudice.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

This is the second time I've seen you take the stance that only christianity provides a moral basis for human action. Do you really think that without your religion, which is young compared to many, the world would fall into anarchy and cruelty?

Consider the previous posts and see if you can find love & compassion linked with the stated beliefs of the people who typed them in for me to see. Let that be proof of my position.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

What does this mean to you?

* Need to test beliefs - A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.

* Reason, evidence, scientific method - Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.

* Fulfillment, growth, creativity - A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.

* Search for truth - A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.

* This life - A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.

* Ethics - A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.

* Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

How has humanism proven to you to be superior in its definition of virtue?

Humanism is based on things like logic and reason, rather than tradition and dogma.

Originally Posted by DarkLink2135

At the risk of sounding like I'm siding entirely with LordSword (which I'm not), Christianity actually began roughly 2,000 years ago with the teachings of a man named Jesus. Whether or not Jesus was who He said He was is up to the individual to decide.

I know, I guess I just worded the statement I made above the wrong way, what I meant was that entire gap of time when it began, to about 50 years ago, that's when he would have been praised or something. My bad

Additional Spam:

Originally Posted by LordsSword

The bible clearly defines what it means to be a Christian. If you see a person claiming to be a follower of Jesus and then acts like a hellion you can't blame the book. This is the stregnth of the book its a guide to set believers straight. The person acts the way they believe and if its ungodly behavior that person doesn't follow Jesus Christ.

Dont let a few bad people undergird prejudice.

Then you have to admit, if only 5% of the people who actually read the bible, and follow it are doing it right, then the book isn't doing it's job, is it?

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

* This life - A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.

* Ethics - A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.

Humanism is based on things like logic and reason, rather than tradition and dogma.

*Hands clapping.* I like your reply. Thanks for breaking it down in simple terms.
Based on my experience of your humanism my only complaint is that it fails to have a central vehicle for calling people to some form of standards in ethical conduct.

I read the part about life & ethics but I have yet to experience your actions that express your commitment to such concepts. What I mean by this is the plain fact that when you see a person being abused (such as the verbal forms leveled against me) you did nothing to stop it. I saw no statement that called for a higher standard to which the other members here should strive for in the treatment of their fellow man.

I would expect this from Jackyboy the nihilist but not from someone who has more definition of ethics in their beliefs.

We can argue all day on the fine points of information, but its how we live out what we say that tells others what we believe.

My religion means calling people to a higher standard and stopping to take the time to consider how your neighbor feels. Have my statements ever been an attack on the person of my fellow members?

Yes I ask the questions, yes I have opinions but I never try to do it in a way that is intended to do harm. Jesus did the same thing and look what happened to him. Has anything really changed in 2000 years?

Originally Posted by Grail

Then you have to admit, if only 5% of the people who actually read the bible, and follow it are doing it right, then the book isn't doing it's job, is it?

I think it is doing a good job. Its sifts the believers from the nonbelievers.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I read the part about life & ethics but I have yet to experience your actions that express your commitment to such concepts. What I mean by this is the plain fact that when you see a person being abused (such as the verbal forms leveled against me) you did nothing to stop it. I saw no statement that called for a higher standard to which the other members here should strive for in the treatment of their fellow man.

If that's your definition of abuse you should toughen up. My friends and I are often far more cutting and insulting in our remarks about each other.

Also, this is the internet, who takes anything said here to heart?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

We can argue all day on the fine points of information, but its how we live out what we say that tells others what we believe.

My religion means calling people to a higher standard and stopping to take the time to consider how your neighbor feels. Have my statements ever been an attack on the person of my fellow members?

No, but I think you aren't being empathetic enough. I'm not saying that insulting you needlessly is justified, but you might consider that, oh, your beliefs and our beliefs (the majority of the people here adhere to some sort of secular humanism) might be similar or different, but regardless, it's the human condition to have a tendency to preach, rather than act.

Christianity, in its lifetime, has stressed SO much the primacy of faith over works that Christians have a tendency to do likewise in their life. Rather than turning the other cheek, you've been asserting your position using "evidence" we don't believe in, and reprimanding us for being "mean". "Have my attacks ever been an attack on the person of my fellow members?" No, but you're passive-aggressively assuring us we're hellbound and - worse - we're being "bad people". If you'd stop to think that Christianity, while hardly persecuted (it's a majority) is certainly DISLIKED by non-Christians for its perceived hypocrisy, you might come at us in a more pleasant, less demeaning, tone.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

If that's your definition of abuse you should toughen up. My friends and I are often far more cutting and insulting in our remarks about each other.

Also, this is the internet, who takes anything said here to heart?

Toughen up? Lets read this again-->Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.

We here are good at the exchange of ideas part, but what about good will & tolerance?
It appears that your belief system requires that people that dont measure up to some standard of "toughness" need to have the good will and be tolerant and not the folks who are able to measure up.

I'm only using the standard by which many here measure christians by.

Originally Posted by Hachifusa

No, but I think you aren't being empathetic enough......you might come at us in a more pleasant, less demeaning, tone.

I am sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. My position is not ment to say that I am a better, smarter, more virtuous person than anybody else.

My religion means looking at myself, seeing my personal faults and dealing with them first before I present my case for virtues. Earlier in this discussion a person asked me about pride being a sin.

Without going into the specifics of of pride and how it works on a biblical level, I will say that I am a man plagued with a host of issues that threaten to undermine my life & spiritual developement. I am a messed up person who believes that I need help because I have tried being the "best" I can your way and discovered that I fall woefully short of even my own goals.

I have however found help in a bible. Its straight forward critisism of the human condition speaks to me with accuracy my state and the state of the folks here. My belief that Jesus is my Lord & Savior isnt just some fanciful notion that I just tell folks to make myself feel good. I really take it seriously as if God Himself is watching & working in my actions right now. With this mindset my perspective on how I approach problems and life in general is an improvement on the ways I lived before this paradigm shift.

Even though this is the internet I am still obligated to care because my God would want me to. My religion means to pursue virtue at all times in all situations.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Toughen up? Lets read this again-->Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.

I had nothing but goodwill and tolerance when you first started posting, but your constant refusals to back up your arguments with any sort of evidence has eroded any goodwill I once had. I will be tolerant and have goodwill to people who deserve it.

If I were to debate a theist and refuse to explain any of my arguments or offer any evidence for them, and instead repeatedly trot out the same old, worn-out arguments that he has already questioned and/or dismatled then I would say that he is quite entitled to get annoyed at me.

I do not believe that there is a god. There is only one existence I can be sure that exists, that is my own. It is difficult for me to comprehend whether or not any of you actually exist or are simply a part of myself. Hence if i were to believe there is a god, it would by myself.

How do you know you exist?

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

I had nothing but goodwill and tolerance when you first started posting, but your constant refusals to back up your arguments with any sort of evidence has eroded any goodwill I once had. I will be tolerant and have goodwill to people who deserve it.

So we have to measure up to your standards to deserve some of that good will you were talking about?

I may never measure up to the standards of the folks here cause I can't even measure up to the standards of my God on my own merit.

This is why I depend on his provision of the sacrifice of His son Jesus. Jesus died to fill the gap that our inadequacy creates between each other and our creator. Because of this generous provision I never insist that people need to be what I expect them to be in order to have my respect.
(Matthew 18:21-35 Colossians 3:13)

Originally Posted by Capo

How do you know you exist?

I know because the people here respond to me.

My religion means wisdom & discernment through the methods of God.
(Romans 12:2)