Clinton calls for socialized health care

I think the difference there is that it's entirely possible to be totally self-sufficient when it comes to food. Most of the world is still growing their own food. Supermarkets are a luxury, not a necessity. You can't grow health care in your back yard.

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

This is different from what you said before. Health insurance is important, you said. Something that important is shouldn't be in private hands in the first place, you said. It's "sinister and evil" that something that our lives literally depend on is run by corporations for profit, you said.

Last time I checked, agriculture was at least as important as health insurance, and it's something that our lives literally depend on, and is run for profit (with corporations making much of it).

By your logic, if the government should take control of healthcare to prevent it being run for profit by evil corporations, it should take control of agriculture, too, for the same reasons. Among other things.

Yeah, after I posted it I realized that my response wasn't consistent with what I said. My problem mainly with healthcare is that it's not being run well. I realize socialized healthcare will likely not happen, but something about how it's run now needs to change.

I kinda agree with Midna on this point. Even though I live in Manitoba, and thus 90% of my healthcare is free, the remaining 10% can still be a bitch. Prescription drugs, specialty stuff (crutches, leg braces etc etc.) and ambulance bills can get a little hefty for a low income family like mine. If we had lived in the states, we'd have been bankrupt several times over considering the amount of times I alone have been to the hospital, let alone the rest of my siblings. What insurance my mom managed to get really helped in regards to prescriptions and other medical costs. To be refused such insurance because of a pre-existing condition is simply retarded in my opinion. They're basically saying "Fuck you! Maybe next time you should have picked your DNA better".

I remember when there was talk of a two-tiered medicare system in Canada. Where there would be both public and privatized healthcare. Perhaps something like that could work for the states. Use of the public healthcare would have to be determined by income or something like that.

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I think that greed is a major problem in the nation, and that a place as "great" as the United States, each man should respect and aide his fellow man when one of them hits hard times.

So in turn, they should be forced to under the threat of imprisonment, loss of wealth and property, and/or death to do so? What is it with you people and FORCING people to do shit?

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Everyone is entitled to "life." I think denying people access to healthcare due to lack of funds is a MAJOR slap in the face to the American population, on a whole.

No one is being denied anything. The reason they can't afford it is their own fault, no one else's.

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We shouldn't HAVE to worry about going bankrupt when our parents get old and need some medical aide.

So because you shouldn't have to worry about paying for your parent's medical bills (they are YOUR responsiblity), you want to pass the cost on to everyone?

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I am not asking for anyone to pay for my child's healthcare. I am saying the system as it stands is broken.

Then what do you propose to fix it?

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You can completely and totally fuck off, sir. Because I dislike the current system, you think I'm a single welfare mother wanting the government to support me and the kid I got knocked up with by some random boyfriend? Fuck you, asswipe. FUCK YOU.

Let's try to read what I said -- I asked you if you were a single welfare mother wanting the government to support you and the kid you got knocked up with by some random boyfriend. I didn't say that you were or even imply that you were.

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Even though I live in Manitoba, and thus 90% of my healthcare is free, the remaining 10% can still be a bitch.

90 percent of your healthcare isn't free - it's just being paid for by money seized from someone else.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

...90 percent of your healthcare isn't free - it's just being paid for by money seized from someone else.

It is free to me, because I don't physically pay for it at the time I use it. Naturally, I pay taxes, my mother pays taxes, and my grandparents paid taxes. Everyone pays the taxes, but everyone gets use of the system. So I don't see how there is anything wrong with it. Some people never end up using much healthcare, but that's okay because what they don't use, ends up being used by someone who needed a little more healthcare. Nothing wrong with that, means another life saved.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

No one is being denied anything. The reason they can't afford it is their own fault, no one else's.

People are being denied coverage all the fucking time. Why do refuse to hear that this goes beyond just what is and isn't affordable?

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Let's try to read what I said -- I asked you if you were a single welfare mother wanting the government to support you and the kid you got knocked up with by some random boyfriend. I didn't say that you were or even imply that you were.

Yes, I think you did. It's funny that for someone who wasn't suggesting I was an unwed mother, half the questions you asked had to do with exactly that.

See, that's the main problem I have with government-funded healthcare and other socialistic programs -- outside of the obvious Constitutional objections, of course.

With things like roads -- everyone uses the roads to travel. They apply equally to everyone. EVERYONE gets the protection of the police and military. However, with shit like healthcare -- not everyone derrives the same benefits. The people who could afford it in a private system essentially get no benefit, because they are still taxed at the same (and more likely, a higher rate) while those who can't really don't end up paying any more (if they pay anything at all in taxes) for the new services they get.

See where the problem lies? You have a massive chunk of the population getting a free ride while everyone else has to pay more out of pocket to support everyone else.

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Yes, I think you did. It's funny that for someone who wasn't suggesting I was an unwed mother, half the questions you asked had to do with exactly that.

They were questions, you silly moron. Simple yes or no questions. If you aren't a single mother with a child born out of wedlock, WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU GET MAD?

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

So in turn, they should be forced to under the threat of imprisonment, loss of wealth and property, and/or death to do so? What is it with you people and FORCING people to do shit?

Well, in all honesty, the IRS can destroy you if you don't pay taxes.

I didn't say that morals can be forced on anyone. I would just hope in a nation as great as ours, people wouldn't be so goddamned greedy and think only of themselves. Idealistic, I know. But what do you expect from a tree-hugging hippie?

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No one is being denied anything. The reason they can't afford it is their own fault, no one else's.

I completely, completely disagree with you.

I have married, hard-working friends, who both have college degrees in very reasonable lines of work. They own houses and they own cars, and they're not bad off.

But when one of my friends was diagnosed with leukemia, the bank accounts dwindled and this particular couple ran into the red.

Is it their fault that the cost of healthcare is so high and that insurance companies are completely unwilling to pay for certain care?? These are good people who work hard and, according to your logic, have made all the right decisions.

At the same time, I am unsure why you think a less-intelligent member of the workforce who works at a diner and can't afford college deserves less in life.

Why do you feel this way, NP? Not everyone in America will go to college. Not everyone will be able to afford a luxurious life. Not everyone wants that.

You're encouraging a life of Dog Eat Dog. To me, that's morally wrong.

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So because you shouldn't have to worry about paying for your parent's medical bills (they are YOUR responsiblity), you want to pass the cost on to everyone?

Yes, my parents are my responsibility, legally. When they get old and frail, after serving the nation with a lifetime of work, I will have to take care of them.

I am not asking that people pay their bills FOR me. I am asking that healthcare is made MORE AFFORDABLE to all.

Health should not be a privilege to only the wealthy.

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Then what do you propose to fix it?

Well, I'm not a revolutionary. =/

I'd say what my state (Massachusetts) is doing is a right step. They could fall FLAT on their face. I expect they will the first time around, too. It'll be a lot like car insurance, I imagine. I don't know what your state's rules are about car insurance, but it is REQUIRED up here. You HAVE to pay for it and maintain it, otherwise you don't drive. It can be costly, but if you chose your plan right, you're set. I hope that health insurance up here will end up somewhat the same.

(My company pays $349 a month for my individual health insurance plan, I might add. I use it maybe ONCE a year. If I'm lucky, TWICE. This seems insane to me. But if my company didn't help pay, I would not be able to afford all of it.)

It won't be an easy transition for everyone. And being the only state in the union that is doing this (required healthcare for every citizen of MA), it will be VERY hard.

But at least the state has recognized that there is a problem, and they're trying something to fix it.

No one knows if it will succeed. Like I said, first go-round, I doubt it. (Funny, I just got an auto-mated call about "low-cost national benefits including medical, dental...*CLICK*)

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

They were questions, you silly moron. Simple yes or no questions. If you aren't a single mother with a child born out of wedlock, WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU GET MAD?

I get angry because you seem to want to reduce me to being a welfare mom looking for a free ride. You refuse to see that there is a problem because so far it hasn't had an effect on you personally. You refuse to answer when multiple times I or someone else has said that people get denied coverage all the fucking time.

At least I see now why you're a "disgruntled negro". Anyone with their head shoved so far up their ass would be.

Here's the thing though, NP: the income tax rates in Canada (where Smelnick and I live) are 3-5% lower in every bracket than US income taxes, yet we still get our health care taken care of (not to mention our public schools aren't in the shitter). We pay less than you. How can you justify your stance?

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

...See where the problem lies? You have a massive chunk of the population getting a free ride while everyone else has to pay more out of pocket to support everyone else.

I still don't see how that's a bad thing. Some people don't make as much money as other people, so this means they shouldn't get healthcare? It's my fault that I'm currently in school, only able to work part time, and thus have a very low income, and a very low reserve of cash. So if I suddenly was walking across a crosswalk, and some asswipe decided to hit me with a car, and I had to ride in an ambulance. It would be my fault that I couldn't afford the cost of it? Basically, it's like you're just saying "Oh? You're poor? Should have made better life decisions. Die on the street." Rich people aren't just rich from hard work. Some are also rich because they had rich parents. Rich people are rich because of an abundance of money. Why shouldn't they share it with the less fortuneate.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

They were questions, you silly moron. Simple yes or no questions. If you aren't a single mother with a child born out of wedlock, WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU GET MAD?

Because you were kind of making assumptions, in an indirect manner.

You can't assume that people are just looking for handouts all the time, NP. Some people actually have legit problems with getting coverage, being denied coverage, so on and so forth. (Actually, I think most people I know, wealthy or not, have problems with getting coverage.)

My sister had a snapped ACL in her right knee a year or more ago. This was no fault of her own.

Thank the heavens that my family could afford to pay the bill for her when she had all of these procedures done leading to a surgery which the insurance company would not pay for. They found it "unnecessary."

She's a graduate student working on her masters in Boston, hardly keeping a part time job due to her rigorous study schedule.

If my family could not have been able to pony up the money for her, what do you suggest she should have done?

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I get angry because you seem to want to reduce me to being a welfare mom looking for a free ride.

No, I asked you a series of questions, nothing more, nothing less. You, for some reason, found these questions offensive, and I really don't see why if they didn't apply to you.

I know people get denied coverage by insurance companies -- they're in the business of keeping costs down and profits up. It's the nature of the beast! If you don't like the terms of your coverage, don't buy it!

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I am asking that healthcare is made MORE AFFORDABLE to all.

How do you go about that?

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Here's the thing though, NP: the income tax rates in Canada (where Smelnick and I live) are 3-5% lower in every bracket than US income taxes, yet we still get our health care taken care of (not to mention our public schools aren't in the shitter). We pay less than you. How can you justify your stance?

Canada is a country with about a tenth the population of the United States. Of course, the costs associated aren't proportional, they're damn near exponential. So it doesn't mean that our costs are equal to 10 times yours, it means they're probably anywhere from 15 to 30x.

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It's my fault that I'm currently in school, only able to work part time, and thus have a very low income, and a very low reserve of cash.

You're young, right? I'm 23, I only have the most basic of healthcare coverage -- basically coverage for catastrophic type shit. Even if I didn't, you CANNOT BE DENIED EMERGENCY HEALTHCARE IN THE UNITED STATES!

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Rich people aren't just rich from hard work. Some are also rich because they had rich parents. Rich people are rich because of an abundance of money. Why shouldn't they share it with the less fortuneate.

They do - the top 20 percent of income earners in America pay 3/4ths of all taxes.

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Because you were kind of making assumptions, in an indirect manner.

No, I was asking questions! You should know my modus operandi by now - if I have something to say about you, I'm going to say it out right. If I thought she was an irresponsible slut, I would've called her one outright. I asked her questions as a matter of RESPECT because I don't know her personally to make judgments about her.

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You can't assume that people are just looking for handouts all the time, NP.

Why not? It's human nature to want something for nothing.

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If my family could not have been able to pony up the money for her, what do you suggest she should have done?

Take out a loan.

Slang rocks.

Prostitute.

I don't fucking know! It's none of my concern.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

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Take out a loan.

Slang rocks.

Prostitute.

I don't fucking know! It's none of my concern.

Or the states could start funding a public healthcare system? That's a good solution right NP?

Try and read the question I was responding to, Smelnick.

And no, a socialized healthcare system is one of the worst things that could ever happen to the United States of America and will be one of the surefire signs of its impending implosion.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

So it doesn't mean that our costs are equal to 10 times yours, it means they're probably anywhere from 15 to 30x.

What I'm reading is "I really have no fucking clue how much this would cost."