Clinton calls for socialized health care

Since I come from one of those crazy Socialist countries with nationalised universal healthcare, I've never known anything else. It costs an extraordinary amount of money to keep it going. I do have some doubts regarding the system in the current form, but I'm not really here to debate that.

What I'm curious about right now is the current tax burden on the average American. How much of your salary as a percentage goes straight to Uncle Sam? I'm genuinely curious.

I know that here in Britain, it tends to be about 25% of your earnings. It's hard to say exactly, because you don't pay the same rate of tax on all your earnings, but it comes out to around that... maybe more. Certainly the more you earn, the more you pay.

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Fuck knows how you manage to have public schooling, i mean shit since America is SO HUGE and all.

And the public school system in America is abysmal, yet you're one of those people who thinks we should turn over our health care to the government as well?

Originally Posted by Soluzar

I know that here in Britain, it tends to be about 25% of your earnings. It's hard to say exactly, because you don't pay the same rate of tax on all your earnings, but it comes out to around that... maybe more. Certainly the more you earn, the more you pay.

I'll pull out a pay stub for you, here.

6%= Social Security
1.5% = Medicare
12% = Federal tax
5% = State tax

Total: 24.5% of my pay goes somewhere other than my pocket.

That's in Massachusetts. One of the most highly-taxed states in the nation, apparently.

That's on a < $5,000 per month income.

Considering, I think it's kind of sad. You're getting 25% pulled out, I'm getting nearly 25% pulled out...

...sigh.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

And the public school system in America is abysmal, yet you're one of those people who thinks we should turn over our health care to the government as well?

To your state governments, yes. And I'm pretty sure a right winger like you doesn't ahve a leg to stand on when complaining about education standards since you'd support redistributioin of education funding towards the war machine or larger flags or wahtever the fuck.

Originally Posted by packrat

So you would rather have your life depend upon a corrupt/corruptible, insular, bureaucratic government which gives you little or no choice in the matter of your own healthcare?

Come on. Lets not unduly demonize private industry here.
While there are indeed a few cases of corporate mismanagement, it does not necessarily follow that all private industries run that way.
Hell, if you look throughout human history, the most sinister and evil organizations have been governments, or at least tied to government; not private businesses.

What the hell is this? Why do you live in fear of your government? YOU PUT THEM THERE! Last time I checked America was a democracy, your government answers to YOU! Who the fuck does a corporation answer to? The fact is; every healthcare company values it's shareholders more than it's customers.

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And I'm pretty sure a right winger like you doesn't ahve a leg to stand on when complaining about education standards since you'd support redistributioin of education funding towards the war machine or larger flags or wahtever the fuck.

No, it's not that I support 'redistribution' - I just think that it's not the federal government's place to fund education in the first place (See also: Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States).

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Why do you live in fear of your government?

Because governments are inherently evil and are the only entity that can impose its will through the ultimate threat of death. This country was set up so that the government had very limited powers, yet continually the government seizes more and more power because it is addressing someone's 'needs.' Of course, once the government seizes that power, it will never give it up, therefore over time governments continually erode the rights and freedoms of its subjects.

Furthermore, the United States is not a democracy - it is a federal republic based on the rule of law, not the rule of the majority. Of course, ever since the end of the American Civil War, the federal government has basically ignored the Constitution and continues to encroach upon the freedom of the citizenry.

Look, why do we keep falling into this pattern of arguing with sociopaths, people? It's very simple.

"Look, for a very small inconvenience to you, you can help many."

"FUCK THAT I'M A BUY A COOKIE."

It's an essentially anti-human attitude, being concerned only with yourself. We are social animals. We form societies, or, if you prefer, tribes. APES do this. CHIMPANZEES. Even cats have the basic decency to groom each other. I see no reason to bother with rational arguments against what boils down to "FUCK OTHER PEOPLE". It's not a rational attitude. These are people that would much rather have us die in a ditch than lose a couple bucks.

Really. This thinking does not merit debate. It merits, christ, banishment to some remote island in international waters, where the terrifying boogeyman of Big Daddy Government can no longer terrorize them.


edit: and after I died in a ditch, I'd just LIE there because nobody paid for any cops, morticians, or coroners

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It's an essentially anti-human attitude, being concerned only with yourself.

But see, that's the thing. You confuse my distrust of government and socialism with being anti-social or anti-human, when it's the exact opposite. What I am against is the government using its power to kill people in order to force people to support someone they don't even know.

I care about my friends, my family, people I do business with. But to hold a gun to my head and tell me that you're going to take x amount of dollars from me whether I like it or not to just hand it to someone else is a concept that is simply intolerable.

You don't have a problem with it because you're a fucking socialist who doesn't believe in the concept of private citizens and private property. What's yours isn't really yours, it's everyone's and everyone can demand it at any time and if you resist, they'll get the government to make you do it.

If you don't see anything wrong with that, then simply put: Fuck you..

Besides, what the fuck are you doing in this thread? Drop the motherfucking track, Pang!

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

No, it's not that I support 'redistribution' - I just think that it's not the federal government's place to fund education in the first place (See also: Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States).

Out of curiosity, what public institutions do you approve of??

And regarding public education, do you know what this nation was like BEFORE it came along?

Public education, albeit completely fucked-up in this nation anymore, is a blessing. (I think the present educational system is almost as bad as the healthcare situation)

I was under the impression, however, that "public" can be defined as not just federally run, but STATE run as well. (I believe more in state than federal education funding anyways~)

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Because governments are inherently evil and are the only entity that can impose its will through the ultimate threat of death. This country was set up so that the government had very limited powers, yet continually the government seizes more and more power because it is addressing someone's 'needs.'

I disagree. I think it's the lackluster attitude of the American public regarding the monitoring of it's own government. If people paid attention, cared, educated themselves a little more, maybe things would be better. But thats speculation.

Like Rab said, we should not fear our government - our government should fear us.

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Of course, once the government seizes that power, it will never give it up, therefore over time governments continually erode the rights and freedoms of its subjects.

It's not just governments who suffer this, though.

I understand where you're coming from, though.

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...the federal government has basically ignored the Constitution and continues to encroach upon the freedom of the citizenry.

Again, if the American public were a little more educated about what was going on in their own system, they'd likely put up a LITTLE more resistance.

I don't blame the government for taking advantage of the poor, stupid, fat Americans. Like you said: who can't resist something that is FREE? It's not RIGHT, but like you said, EVIL HORRIBLE GOVERNMENT.

Blame Americans. Not the government. The Man will use you if you let him, as you know. Most people know it! SO WHY do they let this happen?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I'll pull out a pay stub for you, here.

6%= Social Security
1.5% = Medicare
12% = Federal tax
5% = State tax

Total: 24.5% of my pay goes somewhere other than my pocket.

That's in Massachusetts. One of the most highly-taxed states in the nation, apparently.

That's on a < $5,000 per month income.

Considering, I think it's kind of sad. You're getting 25% pulled out, I'm getting nearly 25% pulled out...

...sigh.

Sounds like in your state at least, people pay almost as much tax as we would pay on a similar level of income. I did some calculations based on a gross of $5000 a month, converted into GBP. It comes out to... like I said, almost exactly 25% going someplace other than into your pocket.

Isn't it interesting how the UK can apparently afford free universal healthcare for not much more in taxes than you're already paying? I don't mean to be provocative, but I'd be inclined to wonder where the tax is going. Perhaps a larger country just incurs that much greater of a cost for the machinery of government, or for roads. I'm far from being qualified to speculate.

With all that said, there's a reason the place you live is known as Taxachusetts. I imagine the rest of the United States don't pay quite the same taxes you do, or that name wouldn't be so well known that even a British man is aware of it.

I would imagine that your state provides you with more and better public services than elsewhere, or if not... I'd be inclined to ask some questions.

Originally Posted by Soluzar

I would imagine that your state provides you with more and better public services than elsewhere, or if not... I'd be inclined to ask some questions.

Interestingly enough, I don't believe we have the best public services in the nation.

I think we're pretty content up here in our tiny corner of the nation, though. We don't really bitch about the high taxes we pay. We're happy to see our community (state) thrive. I think there is DEFINITELY a state community attitude around here. Even a "New England" attitude. "We're all in this together" kind of feeling. Maybe that's what NP is lacking? When you regard your region as a sort of community, you start to care a little bit more about the going-ons of your neighbors. You want to be sure that if you have food on your plate, he ALSO can afford some food for his family. I guess it was naive of me to think that EVERYONE thinks like this.

I'd be curious as to the spending of all the money myself. The social security and medicare, I don't question. Maybe I should? It goes towards retirement funds (which I am paying into but will never likely see myself) and helping those who need medical help and can't afford it. I am not bitter about it.

I do find it very strange that when compared, your pay and my pay have almost the same amount of taxes taken out. Yet your nation can afford the national healthcare.

Of course, your nation is far smaller, like you said.

I really do hope that the states can individually try to tackle this problem and the education problem on their own.

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Out of curiosity, what public institutions do you approve of??

On the federal level? Very few. All departments except for the Defense, State, Justice, Interior, Treasury, Transportation, Commerce, and Energy should be eliminated.

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And regarding public education, do you know what this nation was like BEFORE it came along?

I have no problem with public education on the state level. However, the federal government has no place in it.

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Isn't it interesting how the UK can apparently afford free universal healthcare for not much more in taxes than you're already paying? I don't mean to be provocative, but I'd be inclined to wonder where the tax is going. Perhaps a larger country just incurs that much greater of a cost for the machinery of government, or for roads. I'm far from being qualified to speculate.

Once again - the UK has a much smaller population than the United States. It has far less infrastructure and quite simply, if you have 5 million citizens and I have 10, it doesn't mean that my costs are double, they are likely triple or even quadruple to do the same thing. Catch my drift?

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

I care about my friends, my family, people I do business with. But to hold a gun to my head and tell me that you're going to take x amount of dollars from me whether I like it or not to just hand it to someone else is a concept that is simply intolerable.

See, here's what you don't get: If you want to live in a country where the government doesn't take your money, you are probably living in the wrong country. You see, any modern government requires a certain level of funding in order to function. This money must come from somewhere! Now, in ancient times, a poor nation could assemble funds via war and plunder, but modern warfare is basically a negative cash proposition! Therefore the money must, by necessity, come from a willing donor. That's us! Citizens. You see, in order to allow the government to pay for basic upkeep of our infrastructure and our standard of living, we each sacrifice a fraction of our income. It's called taxation!

If the idea of taxation is intolerable (and any taxation is, in essence, giving your money to someone else — usually a cop or a garbageman or some SOCIALIST BULLSHIT like that) then maybe modern, 1st-world nations aren't for you! And that's fine, some people are into the whole hermitage thing, you know?

Private Islands <- Take a gander, baby! Don't give up on your dreams of true independence!

Originally Posted by Soluzar

I don't mean to be provocative, but I'd be inclined to wonder where the tax is going.

Maybe this will help answer that question.

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If you want to live in a country where the government doesn't take your money, you are probably living in the wrong country.

You're misunderstanding (and therefore misrepresenting) my argument -- I am not against taxation, I am against a lot of the things we are taxed FOR.

The government exists solely to protect our rights to life, liberty, and property. That means they protect you from someone taking your life, taking your freedom, or depriving or defrauding you of your property. That's it. The government does not exist to take care of you from the cradle to the grave. It is not the government's job to feed you, clothe you, or even house you. That's YOUR responsibility.

I am against things like socialized healthcare because not everyone derives equal benefit. The government funds the highways but everyone derives equal benefit from the road. Everyone derives equal benefit from law enforcement and the military.

I am against government programs that exist solely to take from one class and distribute to another, because one party is getting either very little or no benefit from the practice at all.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

On the federal level? Very few. All departments except for the Defense, State, Justice, Interior, Treasury, Transportation, Commerce, and Energy should be eliminated.

Why can these few stay, but not the others? I'm just trying to understand your logic.

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I have no problem with public education on the state level. However, the federal government has no place in it.

Good. Agreed.