Clinton calls for socialized health care

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Don't you ever get tired of feigning shock when expected things happen?

"TURTLE MOVES SLOWLY"

"HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THIS COLD-BLOODED REPTILE SHIT"

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Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Anyone else care to comment?

Sure!

Totally out of my element here, but what, exactly, is so horrible about everyone getting proper health care?

Europe has a fine time of it. Higher taxes, sure. But you don't really get people going bankrupt to stay alive so much. =/

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Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

It's horrible because it's government-mandated -- meaning that you don't have a choice. I don't want the government with its dirty hands on determing how or when I get my healthcare AT ALL.

Okay, so how do you feel about taxes, in general? (Honest question)

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Especially when they seize money from one segment of the population and give it to another in order to acheive their goals.

I see your point. But at the same time, it's kind of the citizens' job to make sure the Man doesn't screw us over.

It's an unrealistic expectation, I know.

I get what you're saying. But why would something so important as health care be ignored and written off? What do YOU propose for everyone to have a healthy and reasonably affordable health care service?

(And again, it works well enough for Europe...)

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Not to mention that such a system in such a massive country is near impossible.

Well, I think we're beyond that point with a LOT of shit in this nation. Too big. Can't manage it well enough.

So a government says "You can have healthcare anywhere, anytime," that would be bad because they're controlling when and how you get it.

I mean, I see where you're coming from. I don't like the government controlling my life, and to slightly digress I agree that it would seem that it wants to be more and more controlling as time goes on, but I don't like insurance companies controlling my life either.

I know this may sound crazy, but I trust my government just a bit more than an insurance company. That's just me.

Originally Posted by Rasputin Forever

I know this may sound crazy, but I trust my government just a bit more than an insurance company. That's just me.

See, to me, one is in the other's pocket eitherway.

We need to reform the system, because eitherway: we're screwed.

(seriously, though. people are going bankrupt to keep family members alive. it shouldn't cost thousands of dollars to get some stitches and anti-biotics)

We've already got Social Security that's going to turn in to a black hole for money. I think that it is more than enough Socialism for my tastes.

Sass --
I don't approve of this because the government foots the bill. If it gets too steep of a price, Uncle Sam will start hacking out healthy segments of your paycheck. I already lose 1/5 of each paycheck to taxes and what-not, not counting my insurance that my company sponsors. When the baby boomers retire and start demanding money from the government, it will be more money than is at Uncle Sam's disposal. So! He's going to raise taxes. A shitload.

I'm just starting off my full-time work life, but I'm already in a nice income bracket. I'll only go up, and if we tack on more social programs, the government will be taxing me WAY more in order to keep up.

Then, we get in to doctors. This butchers a medical practitioner's income and still leaves them open to lawsuits. As a result, even more people will avoid being doctors simply because the school time is NOT worth the pay-off. As a result, you will be seeing a short supply of medical practitioners and a high demand for aid. Lo and behold, you have long waiting lists for procedures that at present take a week or two's notice.

You're left with the poor remaining poor, middle class losing tons of money due to taxation, and only the super elite-rich can remain afloat. Middle class is fucked over again, doctors thin in number, and our medical industry takes a nose-dive. There are a few reasons that the US is the leader in the medical industry -- one is that we aren't socially-run in that line of work. Any time the government steps in to help, it'll ruin everything in sight. It happens in economical regulations and it'll happen in the medical line of work.

Notice I said "a bit" :P

When you get down to it, when people choose to run away from the health system rather than get healthy in fear that the quality of life would be better being sick or injured you know something is wrong.

I'm in favor of socialized health, but obviously this isn't the country for that.

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Originally Posted by Gechmir

We've already got Social Security that's going to turn in to a black hole for money. I think that it is more than enough Socialism for my tastes.

That's not as awful as the health care business, if you ask me.

Any educated American can open a savings account (Roth IRA, all that business) with very little and start saving for retirement.

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Sass --
I don't approve of this because the government foots the bill. If it gets too steep of a price, Uncle Sam will start hacking out healthy segments of your paycheck. I already lose 1/5 of each paycheck to taxes and what-not, not counting my insurance that my company sponsors. When the baby boomers retire and start demanding money from the government, it will be more money than is at Uncle Sam's disposal. So! He's going to raise taxes. A shitload.

I lose a HUGE chunk of my pay to health insurance. I am paying for no services rendered to my person.

At least with the socialized system, someone could be using that money instead of the insurance company banking on my hard-earned pay and unused services.

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I'm just starting off my full-time work life, but I'm already in a nice income bracket. I'll only go up, and if we tack on more social programs, the government will be taxing me WAY more in order to keep up.

Whats more important: money, or the welfare of the common man.

I see where you're coming from. I really do. It's just hard to hear all this when we're all getting RAPED by the insurance/health industry to start with.

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Then, we get in to doctors. This butchers a medical practitioner's income and still leaves them open to lawsuits. As a result, even more people will avoid being doctors simply because the school time is NOT worth the pay-off. As a result, you will be seeing a short supply of medical practitioners and a high demand for aid. Lo and behold, you have long waiting lists for procedures that at present take a week or two's notice.

I don't know about that. It doesn't work that way in Europe or Canada. And we're supposed to be the most awesome nation on the face of the planet. How can it be that the most Awesome Nation can't even keep it's own citizens' health care costs down enough to save them from going BANKRUPT everytime they even HEAR the word "cancer?"

But like Raspy said: maybe not a good idea for the US.

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You're left with the poor remaining poor, middle class losing tons of money due to taxation, and only the super elite-rich can remain afloat. Middle class is fucked over again, doctors thin in number, and our medical industry takes a nose-dive.

Where are you getting this idea??

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There are a few reasons that the US is the leader in the medical industry -- one is that we aren't socially-run in that line of work. Any time the government steps in to help, it'll ruin everything in sight. It happens in economical regulations and it'll happen in the medical line of work.

Yes, health care is private. Therefore, they RAPE their clients to get super awesome technology to save the fat cats and not the blue collared man!

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An insurance company is actually acountable to you -- you pay them

Since when? You know what they do? Label everything they can a fucking pre-existing condition so they don't have to pay shit.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

A necessary evil. In general, I don't have a problem with excise taxes (taxes on gasoline, etc.), but the entire concept of progressive taxation is one of the first steps towards socialism.

Why is socialism a disease in your eyes? Is it because you don't trust the government? Because, I mean, if that's the case, we're coming from the same place.

I just try and chose the lesser of two evils.

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I don't. Your healthcare is YOUR responsibility. No one elses. Everyone bitches about insurance prices, but it's the government that drives prices up by putting retarded regulations on HMOs about the types of coverage plans they offer. People ought to be able to buy exactly the type of coverage they need (i.e. don't force couples who don't plan to have kids to have maternity coverage, which drives prices up).

It's a nice dream you have there. But the average American family has a hard time paying for their health insurance (for reasons you mentioned and others, I imagine).

Why would the insurance industry try to CHEAPEN the costs? I mean, yea, the government slaps all sorts of regulations on there, but you honestly don't hear the industry complaining. They're in the government's back pocket. They cash in on the deal.

Leaving the average man to suffer.

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Why? An insurance company is actually acountable to you -- you pay them.

Again, a nice fantasy. I wish it were so. Sadly, it's not.

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A government? They can compel you to pay them because they can imprison you, take all your shit, and if you really get salty, kill you.

No argument there for certain.

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Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Because it will spell the end of American supremacy as we know it. Look at what it's done to Western Europe. Look at what it did to the Soviets

Pure speculation, NP.

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America became a great nation (perhaps the greatest nation to date) because the government left people alone and innovation occurred. Socialism goes against the entire concept of American exceptionalism. By attempting to make everything 'equal and fair' all you do is bring everyone who does exceed down.

You're saying "this is why America is great - 'cause we left people alone!"

But when the people need help, you refuse to hear them? As a fellow American?

The people need help.

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So? Does that then make it the responsibility of the government to seize money from others and give it to others in order to subsidize them?

The government, as the authority in the country, should either seize control of the mess, or regulate it so people can afford what they need.

The regulations you spoke of a few posts back are not ones that benefit the people, but benefit the industry instead. Very few regulations are put in place to protect the client.

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Anytime anyone has a hard time paying for something, is the government supposed to step in?

No, of course not.

But when a LARGE number of Americans just can not afford to care for their kids and family members in a reasonably affordable way means there's a problem out there.

Do you think our current health care system is as good as it could be, NP?

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The insurance industry, while shady in that they try to minimize the amount of claims they pay at all times, operates on a very small profit margin (7-8 percent). If they could offer more diverse coverage packages, more people could have coverage, but only for the shit they actually need and insurance companies wouldn't have to cover people for shit they likely won't ever use, which allows them to lower costs.

Could I see some proof of this? (The 7-8% bit, specifically)

I'll concede that one point if you've got some indisputable proof. =D

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That's not as awful as the health care business, if you ask me.

Any educated American can open a savings account (Roth IRA, all that business) with very little and start saving for retirement.

By the same token, any educated American can get a decent job and handle their insurance on their own rather than crying to the government. Bear in mind that a majority of the folks crying for help are absolute fucking idiots (present company excluded).

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I lose a HUGE chunk of my pay to health insurance. I am paying for no services rendered to my person.

At least with the socialized system, someone could be using that money instead of the insurance company banking on my hard-earned pay and unused services.

You'll continue to lose the same chunk but in the form of taxation.

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Whats more important: money, or the welfare of the common man.

Well, the "common man" has trouble even tying his shoes in the US. Bear in mind the direction that the education system is going in. I'm not going to severely inconvenience my income just so people will get some help only to demand even more. When you start giving people free stuff like this, they want more of it. But all the bills pile up somewhere, and instead of being distributed just to the folks who draw a bulk of it, the bill is split amid the populace (taxes).