Barack Obama delivers Major Speech in Philadelphia, PA

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Goddamn has any post addressed the racist pastor yet? Seems mostly to do with Muslims and alleged racism of GFF members.

I've generally stayed out of this thread, let it run its course, but I'd say that any post has not addressed the pastor yet because its a non issue. The speech plenty well addressed those concerns for me at least, so I see no need to beat a dead horse.

Also, can we try to be a little civil & informed continuing on? Certain individuals, I will not say who, have shown poor judgment in their statements on this topic and while I know clashes and insults are a common part of the Political Palace, I'd like this thread to be something better.

Thank you, now back to the show, already in progress.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

I've generally stayed out of this thread, let it run its course, but I'd say that any post has not addressed the pastor yet because its a non issue. The speech plenty well addressed those concerns for me at least, so I see no need to beat a dead horse.

A non issue? I thought you created the thread to have a discussion on Barack's speech? And the main reason Barack gave his speech was to clarify his relationship with the pastor. Am I missing something?

Originally Posted by FallDragon

A non issue? I thought you created the thread to have a discussion on Barack's speech? And the main reason Barack gave his speech was to clarify his relationship with the pastor. Am I missing something?

I suppose you're somewhat correct (And I made my post before I saw your previous one). My intent for saying that was what Barack said in his speech... It pretty well addressed the issue of the pastor. To make that a main point of discussion in here would be... well I don't want to say pointless but perhaps redundant.

However I DID say that we should discuss the speech, so in that aspect I guess further discussion of the Pastor would be on-topic. I guess I'm trying to say is that he covered all the relevant points on the topic of the pastor and the racism. I see it as a non-issue now, but perhaps not.

Anywhoo, don't let me get this thing off track. Discuss all you want.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

A non issue? I thought you created the thread to have a discussion on Barack's speech? And the main reason Barack gave his speech was to clarify his relationship with the pastor. Am I missing something?

Pastor's not racist, nor is he crazy[ier than other pastors]. See the full context of everything he said here: YouTube - FOX Lies!! Irresponsible Media! Barack Obama Pastor Wright

Originally Posted by Arainach

Pastor's not racist, nor is he crazy[ier than other pastors]. See the full context of everything he said here: YouTube - FOX Lies!! Irresponsible Media! Barack Obama Pastor Wright

I don't think the argument was ever that he was particularly racist. It was more that he was "unpatriotic".

Oh, THAT pile of shit.

Look, Patriotism doesn't mean supporting what your country does, it means supporting what your country does when it's right. Not right in the Night Pheonix "ZOMG WE'RE AMERICA FUCK YEAH" sense, right in the 'giving everyone else a reason to consider us morally superior' sense.

It's hard to be patriotic when your country isn't exactly conducting itself in a favorable manner. There are reasons why all of our first-world allies think low of us.

Quote:

Look, Patriotism doesn't mean supporting what your country does, it means supporting what your country does when it's right.

So then it becomes a question of what is right. You think doing what the Europeans want us to do even at our own detriment is right, that ever-increasing government control over every aspect of our lives is right, and that somehow socialism will be the cure to society's ills.

I don't. Does that make me unpatriotic in your eyes, Arainach?

Time for some levity:

YouTube Video
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Originally Posted by Mr. Wright

The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color...

Oh I am so glad that I got a God who knows what it is to be a poor black man in a country that is controlled by and run by rich white people.

The government gives (black people) the drugs, builds bigger prisons....

I'd say these are fairly racist sentiments coming from Mr. Wright... especially the HIV conspiracy theory to eliminate minorities. And Mr. Wright straddles that line of racism very frequently in his speeches, to get the crowd riled up and yelling about slavery and segregation. Mr. Wright may have lived through segregation in the 60s but I bet the majority of his congregation didn't, so why instill these old hatreds into his present congregation? Why build up anger over slavery when there are many other, more pertinent issues, that minorities should be angry and concerned over at this point in America?

The fact is that Mr. Wright uses inflammatory speech for the sake of being a successful pastor, which many pastors are guilty of doing. Whether it be concerning racism or patriotism, all of it is unnecessary and nonconstructive. Churches such as this are promoting ignorant, angry conversation instead of hard-fought, productive conversation. Obama shouldn't have stayed in this environment, but he did because of his ties to that community, which may just cost him the election in the long run.

There is a difference between being a racist and acknowledging racial tensions, FallDragon. What Wright's doing in the quotations you provided is voicing legitimate stances on issues that have a serious effect on the black community. Regardless of whether or not you agree with those stances, that's what he's doing.

What you're doing, on the other hand, is quoting him out of context in an attempt to illegitimatize those concerns, which is very much racist.

knkwzrd, explain to me the correct context of Mr. Wright exact quote: "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color..."

You must agree the government invented HIV to kill minorities?

Originally Posted by FallDragon

knkwzrd, explain to me the correct context of Mr. Wright exact quote: "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color..."

You must agree the government invented HIV to kill minorities?

Tsk, tsk, Fall. Do your homework, mate. He's not that far off base. HIV? No, there's no proof of that. But we do know all about the Tuskegee Syphilis debacle. So no, the man is not completely right in his facts, but the sentiment isn't exactly limited to him, and there's a reason for it. The US government DID experiment on the black community as recently as 89, with using poor black neighbourhoods in LA to test an unproven measles vaccine. And the evidence of funneling crack into black neighbourhoods (that one strikes me as more conspiracy theory, but it's pretty widely believed by a lot of people. So true or not, there it is.) So, did the US government invent the HIV virus? No. It really didn't. Did it leave a lot of black people out in the cold over the years with other diseases? Fuck yes they did. He's using blustery rhetoric, but what pastor doesn't? Not defending the man, but if you think nothing like what he said ever actually happened, you're lying to yourself.

Originally Posted by Pastor Wright

The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment. They purposely infected African American men with syphilis. Governments lie. The government lied about bombing Cambodia and Richard Nixon stood in front of the camera, ‘Let me make myself perfectly clear…’ Governments lie. The government lied about the drugs for arms Contra scheme orchestrated by Oliver North, and then the government pardoned all the perpetrators so they could get better jobs in the government. Governments lie. The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. Governments lie. The government lied about a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein and a connection between 9.11.01 and Operation Iraqi Freedom. Governments lie.

This is the correct context. He was not giving a speech about HIV, he was giving a sermon about separation of church and state. His point had nothing to do with HIV. I don't believe that the U.S. government created HIV to kill minorities, and it's immaterial whether or not he actually believes it himself. There is certainly no evidence for it, but it is not racism. For someone to argue that this is a racist comment, they have to first mentally equate "government" with "white people", ie. be a racist themselves.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

He's using blustery rhetoric, but what pastor doesn't? Not defending the man, but if you think nothing like what he said ever actually happened, you're lying to yourself.

I agree that there are many things Mr. Wright says that are truthful, such as the syphilis deal and whatnot. My point was that he's going above and beyond the call of duty by making up facts of his own for crowds of thousands to believe. Because of the authority he holds he should be more responsible concerning the opinions he gives out because many people will believe whatever comes out of his mouth. I still think Obama should've gotten out of a situation like this. The arguement for Wright that "All pastors are sort of crazy" isn't going to fly in a general election.

Originally Posted by knkwzrd

For someone to argue that this is a racist comment, they have to first mentally equate "government" with "white people", ie. be a racist themselves.

You should learn to start reading my whole posts next time...
EXACT QUOTE FROM MR. WRITE: Oh I am so glad that I got a God who knows what it is to be a poor black man in a country that is controlled by and run by rich white people.

Walked into that one didn't you?

No, I didn't "walk into that one". It is not the same thing to note that the government is almost entirely comprised of rich white men, which is what Wright does in that quotation, and the implication of conspiracy that you're trying to associate with it. There is a disjunct between what he means and what it would be convenient for him to mean for the sake of your argument.

In the speech with the HIV comment, Wright was making a point about the concept of governments in general, whereas the comment you are pointing at now reflects a specific government. To equate the concept of government with white people is racist, but that's not what he did. That's what YOU did, after the fact.

FallDragon: Hard not to notice that you've yet to provide a source for your "direct quotes".

To NP: No, holding certain beliefs about economics doesn't make you unpatriotic. Your strange habit of claiming "America did it and America's always right" makes you unpatriotic.

Socialism is inherently Anti-American, therefore unpatrotic. This is what you advocate, a basic destruction of the principles and systems that have made this country the great nation it is.

To call me unpatrotic is to call someone who only wants to see the United States of America maintain its role as the world's lone economic, military, and political superpower. To want my country to be the dominant force on the planet is not unpatrotic in anyway; however, your wish to see the United States drastically weakened by a welfare state is.

Get it right.

Originally Posted by knkwzrd

It is not the same thing to note that the government is almost entirely comprised of rich white men, which is what Wright does in that quotation, and the implication of conspiracy that you're trying to associate with it. There is a disjunct between what he means and what it would be convenient for him to mean for the sake of your argument.

It wasn't my argument to begin with, it was yours. You said that associating "white people" with "government" is racist. Now you're saying it doesn't, since the two quotes by him aren't in the same sermon together. Way to make statements that have all sorts of loopholes allowing you slip out of your original meaning.

Sermon A) The government created aids to kill minorities
Sermon B) The government is entirely comprised of rich white men

Is it really that difficult for you to see a correlation? You sound like Biblethumpers I used to talk to trying to finagle the harsh sections of the Bible around to make them appear more reasonable. It's sad.

Originally Posted by knkwzrd

In the speech with the HIV comment, Wright was making a point about the concept of governments in general, whereas the comment you are pointing at now reflects a specific government.

Strange how every single example he gives in that paragraph were actions of the US government, hmm? Well, every single example except the HIV conspiracy, according to you. How very convenient for you to discard the context of the paragraph like that.