Theological Discussion

I wonder if anyone is going to make serious use of this thread or if I should just flush it.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Minion

I wonder if anyone is going to make serious use of this thread or if I should just flush it.

I AM making serious of it! It's not my fault I have to sugar coat everything to not offend the Christians!

I mean, man. You're lucky I'm not a JEW.

If there was ever a religion I've thought about picking up, its Judaism. Just for the awesome fucking traditions. ;_;

Seriously. Don't flush this. You'll need it in the future when every OTHER conversation turns into a theological debate!

And I don't see whats wrong with discussing Satan. Why can't we talk about Satan, Minion? He is like, God's arch nemesis! HE EXISTS to piss off God! Can you tell me more about Satan? Isn't your job as a Christian to tell me about him?

C'mooooon. *tugs at Minion's shirt*

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

You forgot to raise any sort of serious point amid your jokes.

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Originally Posted by Minion

You forgot to raise any sort of serious point amid your jokes.

What jokes?

Are you seriously refusing to tell me about Satan? I want to know why he decided to storm off like a baby and pitch his own camp just to piss of God.

What kinds of morals does Satan uphold?

Seriously. He's a part of Christianity. Why can't you tell me about him? ;_;

(I am being 100% serious)

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Fyodor - I was taught that Satan was a fallen angel. I don't know what Bible you're reading.

Well, that is generally what is understood. There are many references in Isaiah to "the morning star" that had fallen, and taken 1/3 of the heavens with it.
As far as I am aware, however, the details of what went on are not too precisely known, seeing as how the books of the prophets had a tendency to be poetic and allegorical.

FELIPE NO

Well, he acts that way because he really believes he's better than God. He's not dumb; he's just really, really, proud. He has a kind of pride which is completely blinding. The kind that would even make you wince.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

What jokes?

Are you seriously refusing to tell me about Satan? I want to know why he decided to storm off like a baby and pitch his own camp just to piss of God.

What kinds of morals does Satan uphold?

Seriously. He's a part of Christianity. Why can't you tell me about him? ;_;

(I am being 100% serious)

Unfortunately, this is where we are not too certain. I personally do not think that satan has any morals, except that which will benefit him.
What we do know is that satan is a very attractive being, the most beautiful in fact. However, he desires to try and overthrow God, or at least did. Since he obviously cannot do that, and also disobeyed God in the process, he is no longer worthy to be amongst God, and was cast off forever.
I have often wondered about how this works out though. Like in the movie "Dogma," one of the characters in the beginning is lamenting how if the angels fall, there is no forgiveness for them like there is for humans. It is a very challenging question, and one that I do not think will be answered with any amount of certainty.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Fatbody makes two good points though.

1.) The fact that you're offended that someone can't take your beliefs seriously is just silly. Aside from this being the intarweb, how can you be offended by someone else's beliefs? Thats being just as close-minded as you assume other people are being.

2.) Even if you do close this, I sincerely doubt it'll stop anyone from ever raising the point again.

My personal semantics aside - theological discussions on the internet is about as bad of an idea as you can have. None of us are theologians or jesuits - it just breaks down into an "Us And Them" theme. I'm not trying to knock you down, Minion but come on.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Minion

Well, he acts that way because he really believes he's better than God. He's not dumb; he's just really, really, proud. He has a kind of pride which is completely blinding. The kind that would even make you wince.

So is that, like, his only REALLY BAD trait? I thought there were seven of those horrific sins. He's not, like,a fat, slovenly, lusty devil? Because, you know, I thought he was supposed to be everything God wasn't - the extreme opposite. Like, you know, PURE EVIL. But he was just too proud? And he wanted to take over for God? He didn't actually HURT God?

So I guess pride is the worst sin of all?

So 1/3 of Heaven's angels went with the dude? Wow. Thats a pretty big number. He must have had SOMETHING going for him. Otherwise, no one would have gone with him!

Also: Its probably not good to be proud about your religion, then? I mean, uh. You guys are going to scream at me and Minion is going to say mean things to me, but uh. God is pretty fucking proud if he tells you he's the only right dude out there. =/

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

So is that, like, his only REALLY BAD trait? I thought there were seven of those horrific sins. He's not, like,a fat, slovenly, lusty devil? Because, you know, I thought he was supposed to be everything God wasn't - the extreme opposite. Like, you know, PURE EVIL. But he was just too proud? And he wanted to take over for God? He didn't actually HURT God?

So I guess pride is the worst sin of all?

So 1/3 of Heaven's angels went with the dude? Wow. Thats a pretty big number. He must have had SOMETHING going for him. Otherwise, no one would have gone with him!

Well, this is actually a big misunderstanding that early Catholic culture has created amongst the popuular understanding. They tried to discretize everything into completely black and white perceptions. The understanding of the devil has followed along with this trend, and has created in the popular mind a sort of artificial dualism between God and the devil.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

God is pretty fucking proud if he tells you he's the only right dude out there. =/

Well, he is the only right dude out there, and thus has every right to be "proud." The reason why we shouldn't be proud is because there will always be one who is better than us. In the scope of everything, we have no right to be prideful, for, even though compared to other people, we might be awesome, compared to God, we are as bad as the lowliest persons.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

This discussion is going to be hard to manage if we don't narrow down what we're talking about. I want us to pick a topic and try not to deviate from it. It looks like we're talking about Satan right now. Fine. Let's pick one thing to disucuss about him and bat it around until we're done. Tangents are always the bane of any worthwhile discussion, so lets try to avoid them. Sass, I think you should decide what the topic is specifically, then let's go from there.

Just try not to make more than one point at a time and stay on topic.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Minion

This discussion is going to be hard to manage if we don't narrow down what we're talking about. I want us to pick a topic and try not to deviate from it. It looks like we're talking about Satan right now. Fine. Let's pick one thing to disucuss about him and bat it around until we're done. Tangents are always the bane of any worthwhile discussion, so lets try to avoid them. Sass, I think you should decide what the topic is specifically, then let's go from there.

I think the topic is general theology. Hence the name of the title.
Satan and God are both within the realm of theology, last I checked.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I made the thread. Let me make the rules.

FELIPE NO

I'm sorry, it looked like Sass started it. Did her own breakoff of the originating thread.
I've done that before, and had no reason to think she didn't.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

It was from another thread. I split it.

How ya doing, buddy?

So we can talk about Buddhism or Islam instead?

I mean, THEOLOGICAL is a broad term.

Minion, maybe you should turn the name of the thread into "Worshipping Jesus Thread?" I thought we were free to discuss any topic of religion we wanted?

If not, the title is very misleading! I am sorry to have expressed wanting to talk about Satan!

NOW. BACK ONTO THE TOPIC AT HAND!

Originally Posted by Fyodor

Well, this is actually a big misunderstanding that early Catholic culture has created amongst the popuular understanding. They tried to discretize everything into completely black and white perceptions. The understanding of the devil has followed along with this trend, and has created in the popular mind a sort of artificial dualism between God and the devil.

But, I mean, it seems like Satan himself can hardly compete, you know? He only has one BIG flaw - he's proud. Or so you guys are telling me? I mean, does he have more faults?

Thats why I was asking what kind of morals Satan upholds - if its even documented. You'd think it would be. He's a good device to use in order to frighten people into going tohe path of God and Jesus, right? But, I mean, does it say anything about what he was like beforehand? If he was God's right hand man, then he must have been a pretty good dude.

I don't get this. ;_;

Originally Posted by Fyodor

Well, he is the only right dude out there, and thus has every right to be "proud." The reason why we shouldn't be proud is because there will always be one who is better than us.

Holy shit, man. GOD can be proud? But we CAN'T be?

What kind of hypocrisy is this? A Good Leader should always set the example for his people! O_O

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In the scope of everything, we have no right to be prideful, for, even though compared to other people, we might be awesome, compared to God, we are as bad as the lowliest persons.

This sounds so Catholic, its not funny. ^_^

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I just thought it would make sense if we talked about one thing at a time, but Sass will have her way.

God leads the same way a parent leads. There are rules for us to follow that He doesn't have to. Your parents give you a bedtime when you're a kid, but that doesn't mean it's their bedtime too.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Holy shit, man. GOD can be proud? But we CAN'T be?

What kind of hypocrisy is this? A Good Leader should always set the example for his people!

Thats the basic idea behind Feuerbachian thought: Man is his own God.

Originally Posted by Essence Of Christianity, Chapter XVIII. The Christian Heaven, or Personal Immortality

Our most essential task is now fulfilled. We have reduced the supermundane, supernatural, and superhuman nature of God to the elements of human nature as its fundamental elements. Our process of analysis has brought us again to the position with which we set out. The beginning, middle and end of religion is MAN.

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Originally Posted by Minion

I just thought it would make sense if we talked about one thing at a time, but Sass will have her way.

What? I AM talking about one thing. You're the one pouting about it! I have QUESTIONS about CHRISTIANITY! Shouldn't you be jumping at that opportunity? ;_;

Quote:

God leads the same way a parent leads. There are rules for us to follow that He doesn't have to. Your parents give you a bedtime when you're a kid, but that doesn't mean it's their bedtime too.

But parents aren't always right. Your metaphor is flawed.

And I am talking about Satan, here. I know how God leads. I want to know what makes Satan such a BAD DUDE!

I am 100% serious here, Minion. What makes him so god awful?? So he's proud - you said that. Is he anything else? I mean, did he take up all the worst habits once he was kicked into hell with his buddies? Just to piss off God? What does Satan support?! Inquiring minds need to know! And who better to ask??

(LeHah, I've read Anton LaVey. I know. But thats a bunch of bullshit too, since it exists only to counteract the Church. "HEY! We're here just to SPOOK THE CHRISTIANS! WE ARE OUR OWN GOD. WOOOO Lets have a RITUAL SACRIFICE, even though we DONT EVEN BELIEVE IN THIS SHIT!" I loathe LaVey.)

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Holy shit, man. GOD can be proud? But we CAN'T be?

What kind of hypocrisy is this? A Good Leader should always set the example for his people! O_O

This sounds so Catholic, its not funny. ^_^

Like I said, God has the right to be "proud." And I do not care if it sounds catholic or not. I think it is a basic understanding of theology. It is not hypocricy either, since the problem with pride is the fact that you have no right to be proud. There is always someone better than you, so don't act like you are Him. To be prideful is to almost act as if you are as good as God. the same type of thing goes with killing people. God has the right to decide who lives and who doesn't, because he knows everything. He is the arbiter of life. If someone were to murder someone else, then he would be attempting to usurp the role of God, deciding who lives and who doesn't, and that is clearly a no-no. Just like Satan is believed to have wanted to usurp God. And he paid dearly for it.

However, as for someone setting a good example for his people, what do you think Jesus did? He came, and did exactly that. And then some as well.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

(LeHah, I've read Anton LaVey. I know. But thats a bunch of bullshit too, since it exists only to counteract the Church. "HEY! We're here just to SPOOK THE CHRISTIANS! WE ARE OUR OWN GOD. WOOOO Lets have a RITUAL SACRIFICE, even though we DONT EVEN BELIEVE IN THIS SHIT!" I loathe LaVey.)

<3 Sassumo ^_^

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Satan is actually nearly perfect in every way. His flaw is his pride, yes. His inability to comprehend that God is greater than him and that he needs God. Actually, it's a flaw that's pretty common among people. Thinking that they have everything under control when they really don't. Too proud to admit that they need help.

That and rather than admit that he's wrong, he tries to ruin God's plan as much as possible and uses people for his own purposes. He actually enjoys your misery. Which is one thing that I find can make even a human being evil.

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Originally Posted by Minion

God gave him power second only to His own and because of pride, he believed that he was actually stronger than God and wanted to destroy Him. He failed and paid for it, along with the 1/3 of the angels who followed him.

So I'm wondering. Considering the nature of "free will" in which any being can do whatever it pleases, even in some type of Heaven or eternal Earthly paradise, you know, whatever the hell people are believing they want to end up in after death... Couldn't this happen again?

I asked my morality teacher in high school (a Benedictine monk). He said yes. He said that as long as there's free will there could very easily be another Satan as result of a disobedient angel.

Of course, then again, I asked several monks at my school the same questions and got different answers. Such a small group of people with varying beliefs. Suicide means automatically going to hell? Seems like not everyone thinks so. Atheists can go to Heaven? Yes and no. Consitency~~~ that's why religion is SO AWESOME. Even the men and women who have spent years studying this stuff don't even know. Can I get a Pope to create some infallible truths, plz. I really need to know the extent to which I can sin while still being in the green.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Fjordor

Like I said, God has the right to be "proud."

You're not addressing how blatantly hypocritical it is, sir. EDIT: You did. Okay.

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And I do not care if it sounds catholic or not. I think it is a basic understanding of theology. It is not hypocricy either, since the problem with pride is the fact that you have no right to be proud.

Ah. THere we go.

Of course we have the right to be proud.

If you're a good Christian, God will send you to heaven! Isn't THAT AWESOME? Aren't you PROUD that you can live your life like a good Christian??

Aren't you PROUD God favors you over people like me? Don't you deserve Heaven?

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There is always someone better than you, so don't act like you are Him.

Define "better."

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To be prideful is to almost act as if you are as good as God. the same type of thing goes with killing people. God has the right to decide who lives and who doesn't, because he knows everything.

But Alice and Minion just told me that you can kill a person and get into Heaven! This makes no sense, Fyodor! ;_;

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He is the arbiter of life. If someone were to murder someone else, then he would be attempting to usurp the role of God, deciding who lives and who doesn't, and that is clearly a no-no. Just like Satan is believed to have wanted to usurp God. And he paid dearly for it.

WELL SHIT. Sounds like you can be a murdered and you CANT get into Heaven! You were playing God!

Can SOMEONE PLEASE tell me if I murder someone, whether or not I can get into Heaven if I accept the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into my black little heart?

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However, as for someone setting a good example for his people, what do you think Jesus did? He came, and did exactly that. And then some as well.

Jesus isn't God, dude. He's apparently the SON of God. Or, if you're Catholic part of the whole TRINITY thing, but that makes even LESS sense to me, so lets not bring that stuff up. ^_^

God shouldn't send a messenger to tell us shit. If he wants to set a good example, he shouldn't say "HEY. YOU. You can't be proud, but I CAN!" Thats, like, such blatant hypocrisy, its laughable. I would NEVER follow a dude who said that to me. ;_;

NEEDS MORE SATAN.

Originally Posted by Minyun

Satan is actually nearly perfect in every way. His flaw is his pride, yes. His inability to comprehend that God is greater than him and that he needs God. Actually, it's a flaw that's pretty common among people. Thinking that they have everything under control when they really don't. Too proud to admit that they need help.

Looks like his business is booming, though.

How did Satan need help? He was the SECOND BEST to God! Holy crap, dude - I would be totally proud, too! I mean, pride is CONTAGIOUS, here. I mean, God didn't set a very good example for poor Satan. ;_;

ALSO: Shouldn't you, like, PITY Satan? Instead of shun him? Shouldn't you want to help him?

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That and rather than admit that he's wrong, he tries to ruin God's plan as much as possible and uses people for his own purposes. He actually enjoys your misery. Which is one thing that I find can make even a human being evil.

How do you know he enjoys misery?

Why would he care about a person like me, sir. I don't believe in God. Why would Satan care about me because of that? I am a neutral in both parties!

Thats awesome, though. He laughs when I cry. He sounds like the kind of guy I should look up to. STRENGTH. <3

Jam it back in, in the dark.

You're right, Eleo. Knowing God (Theology) is a never ending processes. You're never done learning. So yeah, people will have different beliefs. This would make things very complicated if God hadn't made it so simple by only requiring you to accept the sacrifice of His son.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

LeHah, I've read Anton LaVey. I know. But thats a bunch of bullshit too, since it exists only to counteract the Church. "HEY! We're here just to SPOOK THE CHRISTIANS! WE ARE OUR OWN GOD. WOOOO Lets have a RITUAL SACRIFICE, even though we DONT EVEN BELIEVE IN THIS SHIT!" I loathe LaVey.

Hehehe, half-right. I think Feuerbach was more "Hey, stop this shit about there being a higher power if you can't support the idea with logic. Just be happy you are the highest power you know and get on with your freaking lives, foo"

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